Olivia Cruisers? Carribean Sun Cruise October 30th

Greyson · 09-08-2010, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

Not everyone in the butch femme community is a lesbian. That's why I don't think it's a smart idea to have a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise. Lots of butches and femmes are lesbians, not all are. Many members of the butch femme community are trans people but not all are. Therefore I don't think holding a butch femme event in a venue for trans people would be appropriate either.

Bully, I get that not all in the Butch-Femme, Femme-Butch Community identify as Lesbians. What I don't understand clearly is how does Olivia Cruises decide if one is a Lesbian or not? What if you are masculine appearing, and/or acting? Does this automatically put you outside the definition of Lesbian? How does Olivia and/or their clients make such a determination?

To me it is similar to how light or dark is your skin color. That may offend some this comparison but I am a POC and have also experienced oppression based on skin tone, color and it feels very much the same way. Kicked out, judged harshly based on outward appearance. Forget what is on the inside and one's actions.

BullDog · 09-08-2010, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyson

Bully, I get that not all in the Butch-Femme, Femme-Butch Community identify as Lesbians. What I don't understand clearly is how does Olivia Cruises decide if one is a Lesbian or not? What if you are masculine appearing, and/or acting? Does this automatically put you outside the definition of Lesbian? How does Olivia and/or their clients make such a determination?

To me it is similar to how light or dark is your skin color. That may offend some this comparison but I am a POC and have also experienced oppression based on skin tone, color.

Sorry Greyson, I honestly am not following. Butches and other females with masculine appearances who do not identify as butches go on Olivia Cruises all the time.

It was a butch femme website owner who decided to hold a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise ship, knowing that not everyone identifies as a lesbian.

Greyson · 09-08-2010, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

Sorry Greyson, I honestly am not following. Butches and other females with masculine appearances who do not identify as butches go on Olivia Cruises all the time.

It was a butch femme website owner who decided to hold a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise ship, knowing that not everyone identifies as a lesbian.

Bully thanks for responding. I do believe you are trying to give me a genuine response and I also think some of the communication going on here is just missing one anothers points.

That being said, I am not convinced that it is the site owners responsibility to verify and/or divulge the self identity of each person from that site. (Believe me, this is not a based on my like or dislike of the owner.) I just think it is the responsiblity of each individual to spend some time thinking about who they are. Why does each individual identify the way that they do? Then it is a responsible aciton to try and give the same respect, that each person with their self defined identity would like to recieve from all others.

Yes, this may sound to simplistic but at some point the LGBTQI community has got to understand that for much of our community we share a similar historical context in many parts of the world.

BullDog · 09-08-2010, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyson

Bully thanks for responding. I do believe you are trying to give me a genuine response and I also think some of the communication going on here is just missing one anothers points.

That being said, I am not convinced that it is the site owners responsibility to verify and/or divulge the self identity of each person from that site. (Believe me, this is not a based on my like or dislike of the owner.) I just think it is the responsiblity of each individual to spend some time thinking about who they are. Why does each individual identify the way that they do? Then it is a responsible aciton to try and give the same respect, that each person with their self defined identity would like to recieve from all others.

Yes, this may sound to simplistic but at some point the LGBTQI community has got to understand that for much of our community we share a similar historical context in many parts of the world.

I do agree it's not the responsibility of a site owner to divulge the identities of everyone, however I don't know why someone planning a butch femme event would book a cruise on a lesbian cruise ship. If there was a cruise planned for trans people I don't think it would be appropriate for me to go as part of a butch femme party on board because I would feel I was intruding on trans people's space who were expecting to go on a cruise with other trans people. A ship is kind of different than say a hotel.

I think the Olivia Cruise line staff needs a lot of training on gender identities and issues for sure. I also understand many have connections to the lesbian community who themselves are not lesbian and do want to participate in lesbian events at times and I do think that's great. I do also support woman's only space. So how this all gets resolved is hard to say but I do think you make good points.

Thank you for the dialogue Greyson. I do always enjoy conversing with you.

Kobi · 09-08-2010, 02:39 PM

Sometimes I wonder if I am on the same planet as some of the rest of you.

Olivia is a travel agency. It charters boats for specific purposes. The crew comes with the boat. The crew are not employees of Olivia. It books resorts for certain groups. The resort provides the staffing, not Olivia. Is it possible people who have encountered issues might not have been dealing with Olivia personnel? I dont know, do you?

Olivia might like to cater to a certain clientel in our community. I dont see anything like that in writing but the cost might indicate it.

Olivia does say they cater to women and particularly lesbians. It is their right to do so. If one have a problem with this, its ok but others dont have a problem with it. Dont like the policy, dont use the cruise line.

I, for one, do not see what the issue is about Olivias response saying trans persons may encounter problems. First of all, I dont know what exactly was asked in the first place. How one phrases a question will usually elicit the response one is looking for. It seemed to me, from the response, a question was asked about trans persons on their lesbian cruises. Nowhere in the response did I see trans persons are not allowed or welcomed. What I saw was a clear statement that indicated at some point, some trans persons did encounter problems with some of the other vacationers. Is it reasonable to expect a tour to police 1800 passengers? Is it reasonable for people who spent a small fortune to go on a lesbian cruise to be a tad upset? Heck we dont have 1800 members yet and look at some of the stuff we go thru.

I dont understand how one would not pursue getting their money back if they were stranded at the dock for the reasons they indicated. I suspect a simple complaint to the better business bureau and the local newspapers consumer affairs people would have resulted in a quick refund. Not pursuing this makes me wonder what actually happened at the dock.

Medusa, I applaud you for being mindful of YOUR clientel and for being thougtful as to appropriate locations and such to ensure a good outcome for participants.

I do have a problem, however, when you indicate Bull did not show an appropriate amount of outrage at what was said to occur on a dock.
It seems to me, that respecting people, is about respecting commonalities and differences. Not everyone thinks alike, subscribes to the same politics, or responds in the same way. Some are more expressive, some are more controlled. Bull strikes me as a thoughtful but controlled person.

We seem to talk a lot about respecting others but have no problem giving out verbal lashings when people dont think like we do, respond in the way we expect, have the same issues with something as we do, or express outrage in the form we expect. Is that respectful? Is that honoring diversity?

BTW, I just finished watching the movie Speed 2 where a cruise ship runs amok. I think I'll stay on land.

09-08-2010, 02:39 PM	#5
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,636 Times in 7,642 Posts Rep Power: 21474861	Sometimes I wonder if I am on the same planet as some of the rest of you. Olivia is a travel agency. It charters boats for specific purposes. The crew comes with the boat. The crew are not employees of Olivia. It books resorts for certain groups. The resort provides the staffing, not Olivia. Is it possible people who have encountered issues might not have been dealing with Olivia personnel? I dont know, do you? Olivia might like to cater to a certain clientel in our community. I dont see anything like that in writing but the cost might indicate it. Olivia does say they cater to women and particularly lesbians. It is their right to do so. If one have a problem with this, its ok but others dont have a problem with it. Dont like the policy, dont use the cruise line. I, for one, do not see what the issue is about Olivias response saying trans persons may encounter problems. First of all, I dont know what exactly was asked in the first place. How one phrases a question will usually elicit the response one is looking for. It seemed to me, from the response, a question was asked about trans persons on their lesbian cruises. Nowhere in the response did I see trans persons are not allowed or welcomed. What I saw was a clear statement that indicated at some point, some trans persons did encounter problems with some of the other vacationers. Is it reasonable to expect a tour to police 1800 passengers? Is it reasonable for people who spent a small fortune to go on a lesbian cruise to be a tad upset? Heck we dont have 1800 members yet and look at some of the stuff we go thru. I dont understand how one would not pursue getting their money back if they were stranded at the dock for the reasons they indicated. I suspect a simple complaint to the better business bureau and the local newspapers consumer affairs people would have resulted in a quick refund. Not pursuing this makes me wonder what actually happened at the dock. Medusa, I applaud you for being mindful of YOUR clientel and for being thougtful as to appropriate locations and such to ensure a good outcome for participants. I do have a problem, however, when you indicate Bull did not show an appropriate amount of outrage at what was said to occur on a dock. It seems to me, that respecting people, is about respecting commonalities and differences. Not everyone thinks alike, subscribes to the same politics, or responds in the same way. Some are more expressive, some are more controlled. Bull strikes me as a thoughtful but controlled person. We seem to talk a lot about respecting others but have no problem giving out verbal lashings when people dont think like we do, respond in the way we expect, have the same issues with something as we do, or express outrage in the form we expect. Is that respectful? Is that honoring diversity? BTW, I just finished watching the movie Speed 2 where a cruise ship runs amok. I think I'll stay on land.