Olivia Cruisers? Carribean Sun Cruise October 30th

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I had no idea they used to be a recording company! I'd actually love to hear more about that
(Going to Google!)

We are spoiled in some way. There was no internet. There were no clubs or very few, deeply hidden. Stepping out was not like it is now. Marching was not a party but a real personal and political statement. What if my work sees me on tv? It was risk.

Olivia Records was part of the first movements to say basically, "Fuck you, we are who we are"....and it saddens me that that sense of political Empowerment, an agent of change, the beacon for femmes/butches/dykes/lesbians community to celebrate ourselves and even more it was a time of standing up strong and saying "FUCK YOU, I will not be closeted even in the face of constant harassment and violence." Together with Meg Christianson, Rita Mae Brown, and many other radical women we fucking pounded the pavements, screamed ourselves hoarse, knocked down barriers, fought in the streets and I did it in fucking HEELS.

It was immensely sad that when Alix Dobkin (whom I personally detest, long story) took the stage at the SF Dyke March and I don't think they knew her significance in their being there throwing frisbees topless or being Trans. There is a continuum of social justice. One freedom leads to more freedoms. Without Olivia Records, which was one of the first labels to openly,(there was also Redwood Records) because we know there were queers always in music, record queer voices, which led to queer magazines, that led to queer concerts, that led to queer protests...

So the very epitome of fighting for a voice and freedom restricting how that voice grew and blossomed is sad. Just sad.

Like many things commercialism and fear of poverty drives our paradigms and our radical becomes "Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?" I imagine it would be even harder for our guests to accept someone FTM."

I madly loved two people in my life. An amazing butch and an amazing trans man. I always followed my heart, ok and my butterfly heh and my radical need for social justice/inclusiveness has never faltered even if my knees have.... So, now they become the recipient of "FUCK YOU, I will not be closeted even in the face of your constant harassment and violence." Violence of heart is just as harmful.

[socialjustice_fsu]

I wanted to add that cruising had been my choice of vacation venues for several years...Alaska, Eastern and Western Carribean, Nova Scotia, Mexico, Bermuda. My partner at the time and I researched carefully the cruises we felt we would be most comfortable on, the cost, the ports of call, etc. We looked in depth at Olivia as we had been Robin Tyler supporters for years through her music promotions and such. Something kind of got lost in the mix over the past few years, though. We had always used the same travel agent that knew us well. My partner had some masculine traits that were certainly noticable to the general public. Our travel agent suggested we go with a mainstream cruiseline as Olivia had become more and more 'selective' of their potential patrons. Not only was our agent inferring issues with the butch-femme dynamic but other underpinnings were alive and well, too. I could not leave that alone, of course. After some investigative delving we learned that Olivia - and I would say perhaps even the more affluent attracting cruiselines (Seven Seas, Seabourne, Celebrity, Cunard) - researched their potential passengers as to income level, credit worthiness, asset assessments, the overall 'value' of the person. We felt we were being scrutinized to buy a multimillion dollar home. No way for those myriad of reasons could we support such business practices. We have cruised Norwegian Cruiselines and found them to be more than accomodating...however, at this point I would only opt to support any business/venue that keeps in mind two premises: 1) one that would welcome ALL of our community and, 2) my safety.

While cruising can be the ultimate vacation for many...time has made me think differently. The cruiselines we did use welcomed us, my elderly mother, my crotchety 84 year old Aunt, and my 94 year old well traveled Aunt - yes, that flew in a helicopter and landed on Mendenhall Glacier. I would not ever want to lose those memories.

Now our environment is more in peril. I look for vacation venues that do not damage the environment as well as a means to somehow support all of my community.

Now we have folks such as Medusa and Jack who have been visionaries and provided a welcoming, safe space for all of us. The cost was minimal compared to any cruise. No, I did not attend the Reunion but I have lived vicariously through the photos and the posts. I am not going to miss 2011, either.

I can only hope MountainStar has a safe and memory-filled cruise. I just have to say that we have a gift of community being practically given to us with the support of this site. We are welcomed to this TABLE...let's enjoy this banquet.[/COLOR]

[Billy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Billy, I have been a lesbian for 30 years and have very masculine butch friends as well. We have never been turned away from lesbian events.

This has nothing to do with how long you have been a Lesbian ...And we are not talking about ALL Lesbian events ....This is about 1 cruise line and their policy ! Like I said before I bet you the price of that cruise YOU because of your looks and their policy YOU are NOT getting on that ship ! I mean is this a ego thing here , because you have been a Lesbian for 30 years and have never been turned away from a Lesbian event , how dare they turn ME away ...Is there a special card you can flash ...And after everything you have read on this thread , I think you have missed the point ....

[Jess]

Maybe it's just me, but I see quite the few butch women in their videos. In keeping in mind that Olivia is "women's space" and was set up like many other women's spaces to provide safe space for women, I think they have been very successful in doing so.

I don't get being non-inclusive to transwomen. ( My definition is an MTF who lives life as a woman). I do however clearly get and support their right to exclude men. ( Trans or otherwise). I know this is not the intention of this thread to dissect the politics of gender othering, however since everyone else is tossing out their opinions, I felt safe in doing likewise. I don't have any problem with excluding men from women's space.

Don't know if the video will post, if not here is the link to their videos. There are a lot of butch women there, whether they embrace the term "butch" or not, they are clearly masculine presenting women, just not "male" presenting. To deny women only space is blatant sexism, in as much as supporting trans rights or lesbian rights, I can not do so at the expense of denying "women" space.

Hell, I would love to do the resort vacation ( not necessarily cruise) but until we can afford to do so and make arrangements for the boy to vacay with grandparents at the same time, it is not on our list.





http://www.olivia.com/Travel/default.aspx

[The_Lady_Snow]

*I* for one am glad that I am part of a site and community that is not going to hood wink me and that will have gatherings that are inclusive to all genders in the spectrum!!!


What a great fucking thing to be part of!!!

Thank you BFP!!!

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by BullDog

How so? How would anyone know? Many of you just were at the BFP Reunion or have been in a group of butches where they were various identities. Are you telling me that male id'd butches look and act different than woman/female butches?

Look different? If you read my post in its' entirety you would have noticed the first 2 words..."appearance aside"
Act different? No

What I am saying is focused on energy, natural instinct, and experience.
I am also talking about Olivia Cruise Lines only, which I stated in my post. It is a classist company geared towards lesbians of an above average household income!!! The employees have filters on from the get go!!! It is so very obvious to me how uneducated they are/were on dealing with trans issues when it came down to customer service. I was privy with my presence to both conversations Snow had with their customer service people and they made a mess of it. I have no desire to be in a female only space or a desire to try and make a female only space inclusive to guys like me.

IMO, if/when a group of male id'd butches come walking up onto their dock they may be, probably will be, perceived as frat guy like with the ability to be more rowdy/aggressive, or threatening even depending on said employees education about our community.

Bulldog...i hope this helps!!!

[citybutch]

My wife and I have been on two Olivia Cruises in the past... this century! I have to say that this was our experience as well... I wore suits and ties at night and she wore dresses... We saw many many masculine presenting Butches and no one was harrassed at all in our experience. I think Olivia needs some serious PR upgrades if they want to look toward a solid future in providing cruises to our community... and keep up with a younger generation... where clearly there is a deeper and broader acceptance of our rainbow of gender expression...

That in mind, we are not really interested in Olivia in the future. I think if we went on a cruise again we would look at Sweet Cruises based on some things that were posted here as well as the fact that they do good things as they are cruising... It is not simply about consumption but about giving back... and I like that a lot... With that being said... we have a lot more on our travel agenda over cruises...

Originally Posted by Isadora

wow, I have been on one with Schon and a bunch of b/f people. Really? No one bothered us. No one called us names. No one wanted to check our Schon's hoo hoo for authentication. Schon is a pretty masculine butch.

I wore a dress, Schon wore a suit for dinners and special events. There were lots of other couples like us and lots that were not. We even won the Newlywed/Oldywed contest in front of 600 participants. They were more freaked out about us being Poly. Funny how people pull there g/f's closer like Imma gonna throw em down and run away with them.

Now men may find it different but there were lots of b/f people on our little trip almost 11 years ago.

*shrug*

[SuperFemme]

Aside from the whole issue of what Olivia does or does not do?
I have to admit I am not even a smidge interested in going on a cruise. (cruising in the queer sense is not off the list though).

Here is one of the reasons for my disdain:

[MsMerrick]

Not to get too detailed.
I agree with what Medusa said
I personally know many very masculine looking Butches that have had a great time on Olivia Cruises
I remember the Music Label very well, an ex of mine had a record with them.
Myself, I would and have criticized any BF site that wanted to create a "site event" around an Olivia cruise, because it would not be a place all would be welcome and BF sites tend to be more diverse than Lesbian events. Oh and because frankly the expense would also cut out so many people that it would be insulting, imho.
Would i go on an Olivia Cruise?
Someone else wants to foot the bill, sure Ok its not really my
It s way down on my list of things I would like to do.. But that's any cruise, any where..Just not my idea of fun...
Feel free to send me free cruise tickets, along with the air fare to get there..and change my mind
and Morning Star, have a great time ; )

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Billy

This has nothing to do with how long you have been a Lesbian ...And we are not talking about ALL Lesbian events ....This is about 1 cruise line and their policy ! Like I said before I bet you the price of that cruise YOU because of your looks and their policy YOU are NOT getting on that ship ! I mean is this a ego thing here , because you have been a Lesbian for 30 years and have never been turned away from a Lesbian event , how dare they turn ME away ...Is there a special card you can flash ...And after everything you have read on this thread , I think you have missed the point ....

No I haven't missed the point. As many here have reported many butches have gone on Olivia Cruises and not been turned away. I know about lesbian events because I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Look different? If you read my post in its' entirety you would have noticed the first 2 words..."appearance aside"
Act different? No

What I am saying is focused on energy, natural instinct, and experience.
I am also talking about Olivia Cruise Lines only, which I stated in my post. It is a classist company geared towards lesbians of an above average household income!!! The employees have filters on from the get go!!! It is so very obvious to me how uneducated they are/were on dealing with trans issues when it came down to customer service. I was privy with my presence to both conversations Snow had with their customer service people and they made a mess of it. I have no desire to be in a female only space or a desire to try and make a female only space inclusive to guys like me.

IMO, if/when a group of male id'd butches come walking up onto their dock they may be, probably will be, perceived as frat guy like with the ability to be more rowdy/aggressive, or threatening even depending on said employees education about our community.

Bulldog...i hope this helps!!!

How are they going to know you are male identified butches?

You say you have no desire to be in female only space. That makes sense to me. It seems male identified people wouldn't want to go but are complaining that they are being excluded. That doesn't make sense to me.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

No I haven't missed the point. As many here have reported many butches have gone on Olivia Cruises and not been turned away. I know about lesbian events because I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome.

Well since you're the authority on Lesbian Events maybe you would like to explain to us what it was about the one member and his group of friends that got him turned away (and remember, that person at that time was under the impression that he was a lesbian). Maybe the person who told them they weren't welcome was an Oracle of some kind and could sense an aura of Future Man? Honestly, Bulldog. If it happened to one person, it DOES have the potential to happen again.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Well since you're the authority on Lesbian Events maybe you would like to explain to us what it was about the one member and his group of friends that got him turned away (and remember, that person at that time was under the impression that he was a lesbian). Maybe the person who told them they weren't welcome was an Oracle of some kind and could sense an aura of Future Man? Honestly, Bulldog. If it happened to one person, it DOES have the potential to happen again.

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

[turasultana]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

seriously, that's your response? A question was asked -how can you know you wouldn't be turned away as a masculine looking person if another masculine looking person WAS turned away in the past? The point being, they may not care if YOU see yourself as a lesbian, THEY may see you as a masculine person and turn you away regardless.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by turasultana

seriously, that's your response? A question was asked -how can you know you wouldn't be turned away as a masculine looking person if another masculine looking person WAS turned away in the past? The point being, they may not care if YOU see yourself as a lesbian, THEY may see you as a masculine person and turn you away regardless.

I don't plan on going on an Olivia Cruise anytime soon. If I did it would never cross my mind that I would be turned away. If someone wants to pay for transportation to the ship and pay for my ticket I will put it to the test.

I already said I think the way Blaze was treated was rude. Blaze was part of a group of friends that included at least one FTM that was turned away. I don't think they should have been treated rudely.

I have been a lesbian for over 30 years and also I am butch. My experience DOES tell me where I am or am not welcome. Have I ever had a lesbian been rude to me? Yes. I have also have straight people be rude to me, bisexuals, transpeople, genderqueer people, etc etc. I've had many a gay male waiter be very patronizing and sexist to me at gay male owned restaurants. I could go on. Most people I encounter- whatever their gender and sexual orientation may be- are nice and treat me well.

I really don't care if people want to go on an Olivia Cruise or not. It's not on my short list.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

Bulldog,

Respectfully, this is very frustrating to read. This issue is SO much bigger than a polar "Lesbian" versus "Non Lesbian" identity-centric struggle but it often seems to boil down to that with you. I'm trying to be super fair about remembering all of discussions that we have been involved in both together and peripherally where the discussion has felt very centered on you wanting your identity respected and not the actual issue that is being discussed. I get that this is a part of the discussion, the respect for identities and how booking cruises on Olivia cruiselines revolves around that, but it bothers me that you can not see the oppression that Blaze and his friends endured.

When you said that how Blaze was treated was "rude", I did a serious recoil. Not because I think you're a big, giant asshole (I don't) but because you would characterize what happened to Blaze as "rude" and not marginalizing, silencing. oppressive, sexist, or any other words that don't feel like "there, there, dear". Can you see that oppression? Can you see it when it happens to someone else?

Blaze wasn't treated "rudely". Blaze was thrown off of a paid vacation with a group of friends and left standing at the docks.
I would personally characterize that as dehumanizing. The really sad thing is that it was done by our own.

I dunno. Maybe Im getting too hung up on the verbiage. Im trying to think of how you might react if we booked a cruise on a cruiseline that had sent a message like "We have had Lesbians come on our vacation before but you will find that your presence is upsetting to our guests who are trying to have a Queer vacation" and then had someone give a personal narrative about how the Queer vacation group left them standing on the docks because they were "too Lesbian" and someone said "they were treated rudely".

I suspect that we might be having a conversation about Lesbians being excluded and how Lesbophobic that was.

Either way, good discussion all around.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Bulldog,

Respectfully, this is very frustrating to read. This issue is SO much bigger than a polar "Lesbian" versus "Non Lesbian" identity-centric struggle but it often seems to boil down to that with you. I'm trying to be super fair about remembering all of discussions that we have been involved in both together and peripherally where the discussion has felt very centered on you wanting your identity respected and not the actual issue that is being discussed. I get that this is a part of the discussion, the respect for identities and how booking cruises on Olivia cruiselines revolves around that, but it bothers me that you can not see the oppression that Blaze and his friends endured.

When you said that how Blaze was treated was "rude", I did a serious recoil. Not because I think you're a big, giant asshole (I don't) but because you would characterize what happened to Blaze as "rude" and not marginalizing, silencing. oppressive, sexist, or any other words that don't feel like "there, there, dear". Can you see that oppression? Can you see it when it happens to someone else?

Blaze wasn't treated "rudely". Blaze was thrown off of a paid vacation with a group of friends and left standing at the docks.
I would personally characterize that as dehumanizing. The really sad thing is that it was done by our own.

I dunno. Maybe Im getting too hung up on the verbiage. Im trying to think of how you might react if we booked a cruise on a cruiseline that had sent a message like "We have had Lesbians come on our vacation before but you will find that your presence is upsetting to our guests who are trying to have a Queer vacation" and then had someone give a personal narrative about how the Queer vacation group left them standing on the docks because they were "too Lesbian" and someone said "they were treated rudely".

I suspect that we might be having a conversation about Lesbians being excluded and how Lesbophobic that was.

Either way, good discussion all around.

No this is not about lesbian vs non-lesbian for me and that isn't what things boil down to for me often and that really ticks me off that you characterize me that way. That's a really strong and negative thing to say about me.

I wasn't minimizing Blaze and his friends experience at all. Sorry if rude was an inappropriate word choice.

People are saying very inaccurate things about lesbians and saying butches wouldn't be welcome on the cruise. I am a butch lesbian and my 30 years of experience does account for something.

Olivia is one of the oldest and most successful lesbian businesses ever. If people don't like who they target their business to that is their choice. I agree that cruises are going to be targeting the more affluent since they are the ones who can afford to go on cruises. I also said right off the bat that a lesbian cruise line would be an inappropriate venue for a butch femme gathering.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

Oh, I'm sorry! Did the bisexual upset you by asking a legitimate question? I wasn't claiming to be an authority, but you already know that. You DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION to make me feel like I can't participate in a discussion about a fucking cruise line because I'm not a Lesbian. So you can go ahead and knock that off right now.

Originally Posted by Blaze

She went on to explain that because there were more butch wemon and not enough woman-woman, it would be best if we booked for another cruise at a later time.

So Bulldog take heart! Provided that the cruise line meets their "woman-woman" quota you will be allowed on board! Yippie!

Originally Posted by Medusa

I have been privy to one story where a woman who was very masculine was given a hard time by a crew member, a bartender, and one of the people checking them in.

More encouragement! You might be allowed to get on the ship, Bulldog. But they might treat you like shit once you're there.

Have at it. Go ahead and defend a cruise line that has treated YOUR people YOUR community like shit. Go ahead and convince yourself because you have 30 years of Lesbian Street Cred that that shit could never happen to you. I am, honestly, appalled by your lack of outrage. YOUR COMMUNITY is treating other members of YOUR COMMUNITY like shit - but that's okay so long as it's not some other community treating your community like shit?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Oh, I'm sorry! Did the bisexual upset you by asking a legitimate question? I wasn't claiming to be an authority, but you already know that. You DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION to make me feel like I can't participate in a discussion about a fucking cruise line because I'm not a Lesbian. So you can go ahead and knock that off right now.



So Bulldog take heart! Provided that the cruise line meets their "woman-woman" quota you will be allowed on board! Yippie!



More encouragement! You might be allowed to get on the ship, Bulldog. But they might treat you like shit once you're there.

Have at it. Go ahead and defend a cruise line that has treated YOUR people YOUR community like shit. Go ahead and convince yourself because you have 30 years of Lesbian Street Cred that that shit could never happen to you. I am, honestly, appalled by your lack of outrage. YOUR COMMUNITY is treating other members of YOUR COMMUNITY like shit - but that's okay so long as it's not some other community treating your community like shit?

I said the way Blaze and his friends were treated was wrong several times. How many times do I have to say to qualify as being outraged. I never said it was ok and I'm not defending the cruise line. The cruise line targets lesbians.

I also never said you couldn't participate in a discussion. Where the hell did you come up with that.

[Medusa]

Bully,
I really didn't read people "saying inaccurate things about Lesbians", I read people talking about Olivia Cruises. I'll agree that Olivia is a very successful business but I'm of the mind that success doesn't always equal "good" (see Sarah Palin for example *snort*). I think in this case, I'm irritated because I feel like we are about to do that whole "Lesbians have never done anything bad/racist/classist/separatist in the entire history of the known universe and anyone who says otherwise is a Lesbophobe" discussion that makes all of our eyeballs bleed.

I'm seriously not trying to tick you off, nor am I trying to characterize you in a negative way. I'd like to understand you better.

a

Originally Posted by BullDog

No this is not about lesbian vs non-lesbian for me and that isn't what things boil down to for me often and that really ticks me off that you characterize me that way. That's a really strong and negative thing to say about me.

I wasn't minimizing Blaze and his friends experience at all. Sorry if rude was an inappropriate word choice.

People are saying very inaccurate things about lesbians and saying butches wouldn't be welcome on the cruise. I am a butch lesbian and my 30 years of experience does account for something.

Olivia is one of the oldest and most successful lesbian businesses ever. If people don't like who they target their business to that is their choice. I agree that cruises are going to be targeting the more affluent since they are the ones who can afford to go on cruises. I also said right off the bat that a lesbian cruise line would be an inappropriate venue for a butch femme gathering.