Forgiveness

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I just wanted to interject and say that I did not limit the effects of abuse to victims becoming abusers themselves. I mentioned both sides of the coin as far as perpetuating the cycle: becoming abusers and remaining victims. While some who were abused take on the role of abusers, others remain in a state where they constantly consider themselves either as victims (actually, I would argue that many who become abusers become as such because they continue to see themselve as victims, and that is part of what they feel excuses their behaviour) or not worthy of anything beyond abuse. Both are equally dangerous, in my opinion. This does not necessarily mean that they enter into physically abusive (or even psychologically abusive) relationships, but affects how they go about their daily life and interact with others despite that this may never lead to being the victims of criminal offense or the perpetrators of criminal offense. I know one woman who was bullied as a child, and who appears to seek to recreate her high school/elementary school life, but with herself in the place of those who bullied her. She does not break any laws, but literally mimicks the same behaviour that alienated her from her peers. I don't think, at that point, it becomes about forgiving those bullies, but about coming to terms with what she endured, leaving behind her insecurities and taking control of her own life, instead of allowing past events to dictate it. However, I recognise that this, to anyone reading my post, would simply be hearsay as we can all say "I know something that blah blah blah," so I'll leave it at that.

You're correct that there are little to no studies regarding those who have not come into contact with the law, but, if I recall correctly, there have been numerous studies done linking victims of abuse to certain psychological disorders that later cause them to commit acts that may or may not be punished by law. I know that there are studies regarding how traumatic childhood events are linked to triggering hereditary forms of depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia among others that would have otherwise remained untriggered. How much this plays into continuing the cycle, I do not know.

I agree that there are many out there who do take control of their behaviour, and, therefore, their future. I think you pose a very good question though, about what it is that causes a person to see that they have a choice as far as how they choose to behave after the fact. I'm not sure I can really answer what exactly it is that causes a person to reflect, and therefore, choose to break a certain cycle. I think a big part of it is breaking out of the mentality that one is a victim, and into the understanding that one does have control. I'm at a loss as to what the missing puzzle piece is.

In other words, I think that experiencing abuse can result in an individual who either becomes an abuser him/herself and/or continues to consider him/herself a victim, and/or continues to consider him/herself worthless after the fact, or merely someone who is negatively affected by past abuse within their daily life, given the presence of a certain combination of factors...I remain at a loss as to what those factors are, or even what factors result in someone who manages to reflect and take control of their own behaviour. Very good, question, though. I'll think about it some more and try to add something later.

Oh yes- victims of abuse and personality disorders and an array of psychological problems can exist. Studies do demonstrate this, but, to generalize this might be a mistake. We all have different ways of adapting and coping with things that have happened to us. There could be real differences in how class, race, ethnicity and gender mix in all of this, too.
Not to mention the development of learned helplessness that can keep us from breaking feelings of remaining a victim.

One of the things I really like about the 3rd/4th wave feminist character (Lisbeth Salander) in Larsson's Millennium Trilogy is how she transcends her victimization, and not simply survives, but indeed, gets even! Now, in real-life, some of her tactics would just land her in prison and rightfully so- but her perpetrators certainly did not serve time for their abuse. I'm thinking more about her personality development in terms of knowing she does not have to remain under the control of her abusers. Sort of interesting that Larsson wrote these books as the result of witnessing a gang rape of a woman when he was 15 years old (which left him deeply concerned with the horrors of sexual violence against both women and men- the original title of the forst book in the trilogy was "Men Who Hate Women" which was changed to "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" - probably a marketing thing...).

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Ryobi

I have no judgment whether someone forgives or not. I wonder though, for the folks who don't forgive, (or can't forgive) do you expect forgiveness from others? Does it matter to you if you are forgiven or not?

Nope. I don't expect what I can't or won't give. It might be nice to hear 'you are forgiven' from someone I felt I wronged, but it wouldn't be FOR me, so I can't really say that it matters to me if someone forgives me or not. If someone forgives me for a wrong I did, then that is good for them. It's to help them, not me.

Originally Posted by Isadora

See and here is my issue. I fail to see not forgiving as negative. As out of balance. As stopping growth. I think I am a wonderfully amazing positive person. This is hurting me too much, I am going to bow out of this.

I wish you wouldn't. Your view is not a singular one.

I don't forgive and I really don't think it's hindered me overall. Sure, I could probably be a bit more zen-like if I forgave more but I'm okay. Some days, great. And that is good enough for me. It's all about what we need, individually, to get through, isn't it?

Originally Posted by IrishGrrl

Isa, I"m with you on your feelings. I dont really see non forgivness as a negative either. I think there CAN be times when it will negativly impact you, but for me, my anger, rage, sadness, outrage has also spurred me on to great things. In a way it is the fire that feeds me at times. I dont think I would have survived without it, and it's now my dear close ally and friend, who is always there to give me strength when I dont feel I have any left.
The way I balance it all is, that I forgive what I can, and make no excuses or feel an ounce of guilt for what I cannot. Forgiveness is personal for me, and a private thing. I do not judge others on thier abilities to forgive or not. And I cant stand and wont listen long to someone preaching to me how I "NEED" to forgive.

The fire that feeds...indeed. I've written the best prose and created the most fantastic art when I was mad as a wet hen at someone.

True story.