The Never-Ending Bathroom Debate

[EnderD_503]

Reading through some of the more recent post, I agree and do think it is the women's washroom that become's the biggest issue more often than the men's washroom, and I think it does because of a number of issues. Thinking back to the article ComparedtoWhom posted, I think I agree less and less with the reasoning the author gave regarding women's disaproval of multi user gender neutral washrooms.

There is the issue of security, but I think that perhaps this issue has changed somewhat with the nature of 21st century western (thinking Western/Central/North Western European, Canadian, American, Australian) society. I think that in most cases, if there were a genuine fear regarding security there would be, generally, less mockery and more fear/outrage at the presence of a masculine presenting/male appearing individual in the women's washroom. But in most cases, as many of us have witnessed at some point in life, mockery is all that we're faced with. So how do we address security versus intolerance toward unorthodox gender identity.

I think, at least where I live, there are the issues added by the multicultural nature of western society. The area that I work in is inhabited by an African and Arab Muslim majority, and depending on the region/nation from which they come, as well as the sect to which they adhere, dress code and the division between male/female spaces is very important to them. The concern and response of a Somalian Muslim woman to a male/masculine presence in a women's washroom is quite different from someone of a non-religious (or even Catholic/Protestant/Eastern Orthodox) background who has spent the majority of their life in Canada.

The problem is, the bathroom issue does not just pertain to trans guys and other male or transgender identities, but to other butches who identify as a female or woman or simply not male or transgender who just may not want to or feel the need to use the men's washroom. At that point we get a kind of culture clash, especially in a nation that identifies itself as a mosaic where all cultures are retained. There are trans guys or other male identities who have no issue using the men's washroom because they identify as male whether intending to undergo what is deemed as "transition" or not (where the eventual aim is to be understood as male 100% of the time), or perhaps they are transgender and also have no qualms in using the men's washroom. But what of those who still identify as female/women/generally not male who reserve their right to use the women's washroom on the basis that they are born and continue to live as biological females, despite being butch/masculine identified/presenting?

We've come very far in many western nations when it comes to human/individual rights, but as the multicultural nature of the west continues to expand, how does one cross these bridges?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Reading through some of the more recent post, I agree and do think it is the women's washroom that become's the biggest issue more often than the men's washroom, and I think it does because of a number of issues. Thinking back to the article ComparedtoWhom posted, I think I agree less and less with the reasoning the author gave regarding women's disaproval of multi user gender neutral washrooms.

There is the issue of security, but I think that perhaps this issue has changed somewhat with the nature of 21st century western (thinking Western/Central/North Western European, Canadian, American, Australian) society. I think that in most cases, if there were a genuine fear regarding security there would be, generally, less mockery and more fear/outrage at the presence of a masculine presenting/male appearing individual in the women's washroom. But in most cases, as many of us have witnessed at some point in life, mockery is all that we're faced with. So how do we address security versus intolerance toward unorthodox gender identity.

I think, at least where I live, there are the issues added by the multicultural nature of western society. The area that I work in is inhabited by an African and Arab Muslim majority, and depending on the region/nation from which they come, as well as the sect to which they adhere, dress code and the division between male/female spaces is very important to them. The concern and response of a Somalian Muslim woman to a male/masculine presence in a women's washroom is quite different from someone of a non-religious (or even Catholic/Protestant/Eastern Orthodox) background who has spent the majority of their life in Canada.

The problem is, the bathroom issue does not just pertain to trans guys and other male or transgender identities, but to other butches who identify as a female or woman or simply not male or transgender who just may not want to or feel the need to use the men's washroom. At that point we get a kind of culture clash, especially in a nation that identifies itself as a mosaic where all cultures are retained. There are trans guys or other male identities who have no issue using the men's washroom because they identify as male whether intending to undergo what is deemed as "transition" or not (where the eventual aim is to be understood as male 100% of the time), or perhaps they are transgender and also have no qualms in using the men's washroom. But what of those who still identify as female/women/generally not male who reserve their right to use the women's washroom on the basis that they are born and continue to live as biological females, despite being butch/masculine identified/presenting?

We've come very far in many western nations when it comes to human/individual rights, but as the multicultural nature of the west continues to expand, how does one cross these bridges?

I think it still does have so much to do with security in my area. Women are very careful and honestly, how many horror films have scary bathroom scenes!

I get wanting to use the Women's bathroom to make a point, or becasue it is cleaner, but I sincerely think it safer to use the Men's room when in question. Men do not look at each other, especially in the bathroom unless they have ulterior motives.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I think it still does have so much to do with security in my area. Women are very careful and honestly, how many horror films have scary bathroom scenes!

I get wanting to use the Women's bathroom to make a point, or becasue it is cleaner, but I sincerely think it safer to use the Men's room when in question. Men do not look at each other, especially in the bathroom unless they have ulterior motives.

I think I didn't express myself entirely in the clearest way possible. I definitely agree with you that security is still an issue, but I'm not sure that it being an issue is why so many butches and masculine females/women etc. have trouble in women's washrooms.

For example, I remember on the b-f site a while back there was a discussion concerning the bathroom issue. One poster had made a complaint about how they'd been treated in a women's changeroom and how there shouldn't be any such issues (or something like that, my memory's foggy). I remember posting a response about the security, and another poster (I think maybe JustJo? Lemme know if I'm off base here) gave an example of a client of her's reaction when a very masculine butch entered the change room. If I recall correctly, the response from the client was genuine shock because she really thought a man had entered the changeroom. But that is not the response many women give when they see a masculine biological female enter a washroom/changeroom/what have you. More often than not they know the person is in the right bathroom according to biological sex, but choose to make some kind of snide remark, make a big deal and bring a security guard into the situation for the sake of humiliating the individual, or generally engage in some kind of mockery. They do not express shock or fear because they don't actually fear for their own safety. They just want to ridicule the individual.

Also, I agree the men's washroom is a safer bet and personally don't have a qualm with what you suggest since I prefer to be there, but I understand that others do not. I can understand the point some butches who do not identify as male would make, that they have just as much a right to be there as any other female/woman. With regard to encouraging progressive thought as far as sex and gender, should they not continue to use the women's washroom even if other women do not approve of their gender identity? Should it not be used as an instance of practice what you preach, so to speak? Am I making any sense?

[SelfMadeMan]

I noticed, after doing a couple panels/talks at the University of Wisconsin, and then going back for our daughter's ATP performance there this week, that most of the facilities on campus are gender neutral. I think that rocks!

[bright_arrow]

When boi and I are out and about, I go with. I can't say I notice anyone giving hym looks but then again I walk ahead of hym and engage hym in conversation (hy may look masculine but hy doesn't sound it) while we walk in. When we're coming home from Jersey hy's often still in uniform so no one really takes a second look.

I guess the way I see it is there is nothing keeping a man out of the women's restroom if he was determined to come in, not really. I assume when I see someone resembling a female appearance that they have every right to be in the restroom, and frankly, I don't care. As long as you're not trying to share my stall with me, go for it!

[SuperFemme]

i make the person i am married to go to the garage.
so i can use the facilities.

yanno?

somethings i need to do alone.

my utopia are those "family" bathrooms.

one room, door locks, and nobody is listening to how you you pee. or worse....

[bright_arrow]

ETA: Apologies, I didn't realize the thread category I was in, my .02 doesn't quite apply now

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by desdansmoncoeur

ETA: Apologies, I didn't realize the thread category I was in, my .02 doesn't quite apply now

don't you find your voice as SOFFA has a place here?

I am stting in hospital right now so I am not getting too deep.

They ways I have had my personal safefty compromised by doing my human shield act are pretty awful.

it's a big issue.

[bright_arrow]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

don't you find your voice as SOFFA has a place here?

I am stting in hospital right now so I am not getting too deep.

They ways I have had my personal safefty compromised by doing my human shield act are pretty awful.

it's a big issue.

When you put it that way, you have a point, I just didn't want to derail or offend being in the 'wrong' thread as my partner is butch-id'd, that's all.

~ desd, aka soothesayer/peacekeeper

[theoddz]

Adele, I too am a "family bathroom" enthusiast. I promise, that if you and Cal should come to visit at Casa Theo, you will have your very own "privy room". One room, one door, one lock.
----------------------------------

That said.....

Before T, and before I began to pass 100% of the time, I had the most horrible anxiety about using a public restroom. I'd hold it and wait until I got home, even if it meant having to drive across town to my home. Many, MANY times....more than I can count, had I (prior to transition) been called down, usually by XY males for heading in to the ladies' room. It was always....always....a nervous, angsty experience for me.

Now, I must say this. I've been out with a couple of fabulous and fiercely protective Femmes....some from this site, and they have done a *fabulous* job of running interference for me while I dashed into a Ladies' room to pee when I just couldn't hold it any longer. Let me tell you....a guy couldn't ask for a more stalwart, fearless ally than those beautiful women who had my back in these situations. I'm sure my bladder has escaped irreparable damage through the good graces and formidable courage of these lovely Ladies!!! G-d love you Ladies, one and all, for standing up for us and letting us and our potential harassers/adversaries know that they were going to be a force to reckon with, if anyone dared to harass us for our gender presentation.

I've seen so many posts here on this web site, and on the others, from non trans folks who want to congratulate us transfolk for our "courage" in walking the world the way we do, but let me tell you....and this is speaking from my heart about my past, that having good allies who aren't afraid to step forward and "have our backs" made all the difference to this guy.

I knew from the day I read Medusa's "Ode To The Butches" that I was finally home with this community and that there were others who not only understood but would advocate (and celebrate) guys/people like me who never fit in anywhere else and live outside of gender "norms".

A person can never know what small thing will touch another's life in a most profound way. Finding this community touched mine. Oh, and 'Dusa??? If you read this, THANK YOU....again.

~Theo~ .....lovin' on our allies.

[Ryobi]

I'm sure everyone knows the song, "Dream Police" by Cheap Trick. I have changed a few words to the start and sing it at work all the time. Everyone knows when I have to pee.
"The Pee Police, they're always lookin at me.
The Pee Police, they wanna know how I pee."

This came about when I was outed at work by "friends"/co workers. (everyone knew I'm queer. They didn't know what kind of queer because, I had just actualized it myself. And to make knives bigger, I got these 2 "friends"/assholes their job. Another story, another thread.) Anyway,
When this happened, I started to notice that a few people were watching what bathroom I went into. So, because of my love to fuck with people, I started using whichever one was closest. They acted like they would know everything about me just by which bathroom I used. At one venue, this got somewhat heated because we can only use the locker rooms. This meant that a lot more people than just my co-workers used these restrooms. Long story short, I now have access to the unisex bathroom by the Mgt. offices. I didn't ask for it but, I do use it. One of the upper ups talked to me about the situation, then gave me that access. He's cool and very understanding. At another venue I work at, there are unisex bathrooms except for the dressing rooms. A mix of uni and not through out the building. When I have to pee there, a few of the guys are still hung up about the bathroom situation. (5 frickin years later) I of course, use the unisex ones, on a break, with a bunch of people around. In the last 5 years, I have never exited one of those bathrooms without leaving the seat up. No matter what I do while I'm in there, I make sure the seat is up when I leave. (no urinals, just a toilet and sink) The ignorant are confused. The informed are amused. (I do talk with people about TG issues. Most I work with are cool about it. Some are at least educated enough to be respectful. A few will always not care to be human.)

The Pee Police, they're always lookin at me.
The Pee Police, they wanna know how I pee.

Oh, I too love the family or uni bathrooms. More and more places here have them. And, if I can help it, I'll hold it until I get home if one of those isn't available.

[Glenn]

[QUOTE=Ryobi;199930] I have never exited one of those bathrooms without leaving the seat up. No matter what I do while I'm in there, I make sure the seat is up when I leave. (no urinals, just a toilet and sink)

But why? (Here's another issue) Would'nt the females prefer the seat down lol? The wave of the future in public and corporate bathroom design seems to be moving in the direction of doorless stalls, and wider and deeper walls. We're trying to open them up to appease the pee police