masculine maturity?

wolfbittenpoet · 10-09-2010, 01:53 PM

I'm 23 I'm young I know it. But I've been told over and over I am more mature then that. But then again I made my choices or at least accepted myself young. Maturity I suppose happens in terms of experience. Some butches you meet have only allowed themselves to be butches for part of their lives. The same goes for a lot of transfolk. All the glbt community in a way goes through a second social teenage stage. People hit it at different times. In this time they learn to self actualize. For some they need this time because they've hidden their whole lives or conformed to different standards. Yes butches may mature later but it's because in ways some are finding a new person. Femmes are mostly femmes their whole lives they simply change sexual preferences or find a broader spectrum of themselves. Some butches are learning their place in the social construct we live in. So like teenage boys they flex themselves and have boneheaded moments but they learn. But overall I think maturity is individual. Some people will forever have the maturity of a spoiled six year old. It doesn't matter butch femme trans or other.

Chancie · 10-09-2010, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Femmes are mostly femmes their whole lives they simply change sexual preferences or find a broader spectrum of themselves.

I was with you, really with you, nodding my head and everything, until this.

I am sorry, rlin, because I fear this will derail your thread, but we are not interchangeable with self identified straight women just because some people think we look a certain socially prescribed way.

wolfbittenpoet · 10-09-2010, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancie

I was with you, really with you, nodding my head and everything, until this.

I am sorry, rlin, because I fear this will derail your thread, but we are not interchangeable with self identified straight women just because some people think we look a certain socially prescribed way.

Chancie you interpretted it wrong or the words didn't read right. I am not saying a femme is in anyway the same as a si straight woman. But for the most parts the femmes I know and have known find themselves a lot earlier or have the courage to accept themselves so much earlier. It gives them a certain step up. Society still screws you over because you do look the way society thinks you should but you don't always act it. In a way it's harder to be a femme then it is a butch.

Chancie · 10-09-2010, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfbittenpoet

Chancie you interpretted it wrong or the words didn't read right. I am not saying a femme is in anyway the same as a si straight woman. But for the most parts the femmes I know and have known find themselves a lot earlier or have the courage to accept themselves so much earlier. It gives them a certain step up. Society still screws you over because you do look the way society thinks you should but you don't always act it. In a way it's harder to be a femme then it is a butch.

I appreciate your thoughtful response.

Mister Bent · 10-09-2010, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfbittenpoet

Chancie you interpretted it wrong or the words didn't read right. I am not saying a femme is in anyway the same as a si straight woman. But for the most parts the femmes I know and have known find themselves a lot earlier or have the courage to accept themselves so much earlier. It gives them a certain step up. Society still screws you over because you do look the way society thinks you should but you don't always act it. In a way it's harder to be a femme then it is a butch.

I think the words didn't get written right - so thank you for this attempt to clarify, however, you are still offering a very broad generalization based on the limited number of femmes you know.

It's impossible to interpret the femme/feminine experience this way, not to mention, this is a thread about the masculine path.

rlin · 10-09-2010, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

It's impossible to interpret the femme/feminine experience this way, not to mention, this is a thread about the masculine path.

again respectfully...
in actuality i posted this in the butch forum because yes i am interested in butch maturity... but.. in my OP i actually asked about a comparison...

i think that at some level the maturity of femme in comparison to the maturity of butch is interesting to me...
but... indeed my biggest wonder was about masulinity and the amount of impact it has on maturity...

to address other posters...
i have been out longer than i was in... way longer... as a butch i have completed the entire spectrum of a full mature provider for my family... i have experienced shit and thought that i acted as an adult would... i am conscientious and compassionate and all the things that most apply to the definition of maturity...

however... when i look in a mirror...
then i know that a lot of the time... the insides do not match... i feel like i am learning so much about myself right now... at this time... that i am just beginning to age... to grow up... that is the context of maturity i have been thinking of...
several folks mentioned knowing oneself...
this is the thing that is happening to me... i made all the right moves... because i was supposed to... i did all the things that were expected... well... maybe not all... but the ones that were necessary...

but... i never knew myself... i couldnt pinpoint this before i listened to the folks that have posted here... and i appreciate the thoughts and the fact that you share them...

this brings me back to another comparison...
introspection... could that have anything to do with what i am talking about?
are femmes this way too? is this a butch thing? that i just dont look inside me that often? pardon.... or i just never did until recently...

i dont know why i keep tying this up with gender... i think because maybe when i look in the mirror recently i address myself and my mind flows in directions that make me think of the fact that i am butch... as if maybe this helped to keep my from taking a close look at myself... even tho i have always thought and acted as if i were damned proud of being butch...

see... my thoughts are so damned scattered on this subject... that is why intentionally didnt say very much in the opener... hopin that maybe thru listening i will learn something... listening to everyone...

BullDog · 10-09-2010, 02:53 PM

rlin, it seems to me what you are describing is a maturation process going on within yourself- rather than maturity as in being a responsible adult. This makes sense to me. I am not sure if this has to do with comparing butches to femmes as far as it taking longer, but I do think you may be experiencing a new level of awareness and comfort zone of yourself as a person (which includes being butch) and it comes from both your life experience and introspection.

I do think butches (probably other genders as well) do become more comfortable in our skins the more life experience we gain and the more we come to terms with ourselves, our gender and place in the world. I think older butches often have a quiet confidence about themselves where posturing is not necessary. I do think it is part of a maturation process- in the way I think you are describing.

little man · 10-09-2010, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlin

this brings me back to another comparison...
introspection... could that have anything to do with what i am talking about?
are femmes this way too? is this a butch thing? that i just dont look inside me that often? pardon.... or i just never did until recently...

i dont know why i keep tying this up with gender... i think because maybe when i look in the mirror recently i address myself and my mind flows in directions that make me think of the fact that i am butch... as if maybe this helped to keep my from taking a close look at myself... even tho i have always thought and acted as if i were damned proud of being butch...

this is a personal response to this part of your post, rlin.

my creds: im 53, have been out since i was 14 and have never been much good at being a girl, am now into my 8th(?) year of transition.

i don't know that being butch plays into introspection much. i have always, from the time i was very young, been introspective. i've always read a lot and "tried on" different perspectives and thought processes to see how they fit with (i suppose) my experience and view of the world, however limited it was at any particular time.

my dad told me once (i think somewhere in my 30s) that i was more honest about myself and with myself than most people are. he told me that makes others uncomfortable because it compels them to have a look at themselves. i'm not sure how true that is, but it made sense to me.

have you had a look to see what's brought you to looking more closely at yourself, who you are and your place in the world?

Corkey · 10-09-2010, 03:42 PM

My response is this. I know that maturity has nothing to do with gender, sexuality or how some identify. Maturity comes from self examination, life experiences and knowledge of the world at large. The more one examines their actions, responses to others actions and teases apart the why's and wherefores of said actions the more one can come to conclusions that are based in reality. When folks come to maturity is based on their own experiences. I can tell you at the age of 17 I became fully maturated, but you may not believe me. That would not be something that is provable, but it is definitely my reality.
Good topic.

little man · 10-09-2010, 02:54 PM

mild disclaimer: i'm still thinking this through, so the process is incomplete.

that said...

i agree with points made by jenny, gemme and bent. i think we also need to through into the mix societal expectations (in a general sort of way, not necessarily straight vs queer).

i think females are perceived to mature at a faster rate than males based, in part, on their societal roles. women are socialized to be wives, mom, caretakers of all who need to be cared for. men are socialized to be providers. it's a bit of a subtle distinction, i think....men offer up the materials for the work and women are expected to sew the fabric of a cohesive life from thost materials. it's easy enough to go out and work your 40 hrs and turn your paycheck over to someone and say "make it work". if you are not resposible for the lion's share of decisions about what gets handled first, in setting the priorities for making the sort of life you want, it leaves more time for leisure activity and just basic fucking off.

since this isn't a discussion about the fairness of division of labor and responsibility, i'll leave that piece alone. i was just thinking that i can't think of very many women who even have the option to play schoolyard games well into their 30s or 40s and make millions of dollars doing so. sure, there are some, but the disparity between men and women or male and female in those endeavors is heavily skewed toward men. determining maturity is a comparitive thing...male vs female. when the opportunity for leisure time activities is higher for one group than another, i think it definitely skews toward males for immaturity. in the world at large, i think men are offered more leisure time because they "bring home the bacon", take care of the "hard" or "heavy" work and deserve all that down time. toss in the disparity in earning power and it gets even more one-sided. personally, i think raising kids, toting them here and there, as well as managing a home and juggling finances is a hell of a lot of work. work i'm not inclined toward. toss in having to look after another full grown adult and oh yeah, a full time job? you would have to be mature to juggle all that and make it work.

in short (kinda), i think that responsibility and stepping up to it go into determining maturity levels...and expectations of who handles what plays into it as well.

this is as far as i've gotten. this is an interesting topic, rlin...thanks for the food for thought.

Julie · 10-09-2010, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfbittenpoet

I'm 23 I'm young I know it. But I've been told over and over I am more mature then that. But then again I made my choices or at least accepted myself young. Maturity I suppose happens in terms of experience. Some butches you meet have only allowed themselves to be butches for part of their lives. The same goes for a lot of transfolk. All the glbt community in a way goes through a second social teenage stage. People hit it at different times. In this time they learn to self actualize. For some they need this time because they've hidden their whole lives or conformed to different standards. Yes butches may mature later but it's because in ways some are finding a new person. Femmes are mostly femmes their whole lives they simply change sexual preferences or find a broader spectrum of themselves. Some butches are learning their place in the social construct we live in. So like teenage boys they flex themselves and have boneheaded moments but they learn. But overall I think maturity is individual. Some people will forever have the maturity of a spoiled six year old. It doesn't matter butch femme trans or other.

Well... For someone who claims to be so young (age perhaps)... You are quite WISE!

Great Post Wolf!

10-09-2010, 02:53 PM	#7
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,665 Times in 4,464 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	rlin, it seems to me what you are describing is a maturation process going on within yourself- rather than maturity as in being a responsible adult. This makes sense to me. I am not sure if this has to do with comparing butches to femmes as far as it taking longer, but I do think you may be experiencing a new level of awareness and comfort zone of yourself as a person (which includes being butch) and it comes from both your life experience and introspection. I do think butches (probably other genders as well) do become more comfortable in our skins the more life experience we gain and the more we come to terms with ourselves, our gender and place in the world. I think older butches often have a quiet confidence about themselves where posturing is not necessary. I do think it is part of a maturation process- in the way I think you are describing. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

10-09-2010, 03:42 PM	#9
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,270 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	My response is this. I know that maturity has nothing to do with gender, sexuality or how some identify. Maturity comes from self examination, life experiences and knowledge of the world at large. The more one examines their actions, responses to others actions and teases apart the why's and wherefores of said actions the more one can come to conclusions that are based in reality. When folks come to maturity is based on their own experiences. I can tell you at the age of 17 I became fully maturated, but you may not believe me. That would not be something that is provable, but it is definitely my reality. Good topic. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

10-09-2010, 02:54 PM	#10
little man Member How Do You Identify?: mister Preferred Pronoun?: he Relationship Status: hard to hold Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: where the road goes on forever and the party never ends Posts: 1,003 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 169 Thanked 1,535 Times in 437 Posts Rep Power: 13709164	mild disclaimer: i'm still thinking this through, so the process is incomplete. that said... i agree with points made by jenny, gemme and bent. i think we also need to through into the mix societal expectations (in a general sort of way, not necessarily straight vs queer). i think females are perceived to mature at a faster rate than males based, in part, on their societal roles. women are socialized to be wives, mom, caretakers of all who need to be cared for. men are socialized to be providers. it's a bit of a subtle distinction, i think....men offer up the materials for the work and women are expected to sew the fabric of a cohesive life from thost materials. it's easy enough to go out and work your 40 hrs and turn your paycheck over to someone and say "make it work". if you are not resposible for the lion's share of decisions about what gets handled first, in setting the priorities for making the sort of life you want, it leaves more time for leisure activity and just basic fucking off. since this isn't a discussion about the fairness of division of labor and responsibility, i'll leave that piece alone. i was just thinking that i can't think of very many women who even have the option to play schoolyard games well into their 30s or 40s and make millions of dollars doing so. sure, there are some, but the disparity between men and women or male and female in those endeavors is heavily skewed toward men. determining maturity is a comparitive thing...male vs female. when the opportunity for leisure time activities is higher for one group than another, i think it definitely skews toward males for immaturity. in the world at large, i think men are offered more leisure time because they "bring home the bacon", take care of the "hard" or "heavy" work and deserve all that down time. toss in the disparity in earning power and it gets even more one-sided. personally, i think raising kids, toting them here and there, as well as managing a home and juggling finances is a hell of a lot of work. work i'm not inclined toward. toss in having to look after another full grown adult and oh yeah, a full time job? you would have to be mature to juggle all that and make it work. in short (kinda), i think that responsibility and stepping up to it go into determining maturity levels...and expectations of who handles what plays into it as well. this is as far as i've gotten. this is an interesting topic, rlin...thanks for the food for thought. __________________ i gots pitchers here i'm a rambling man i ain't ever gonna change i got a gypsy soul to blame and i was born for leaving --zac brown band (colder weather)

10-09-2010, 01:53 PM	#1
wolfbittenpoet Member How Do You Identify?: Typewriter Boy Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Single Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: FL Posts: 534 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 891 Thanked 1,578 Times in 402 Posts Rep Power: 7303677	I'm 23 I'm young I know it. But I've been told over and over I am more mature then that. But then again I made my choices or at least accepted myself young. Maturity I suppose happens in terms of experience. Some butches you meet have only allowed themselves to be butches for part of their lives. The same goes for a lot of transfolk. All the glbt community in a way goes through a second social teenage stage. People hit it at different times. In this time they learn to self actualize. For some they need this time because they've hidden their whole lives or conformed to different standards. Yes butches may mature later but it's because in ways some are finding a new person. Femmes are mostly femmes their whole lives they simply change sexual preferences or find a broader spectrum of themselves. Some butches are learning their place in the social construct we live in. So like teenage boys they flex themselves and have boneheaded moments but they learn. But overall I think maturity is individual. Some people will forever have the maturity of a spoiled six year old. It doesn't matter butch femme trans or other.