On Maleness, MaleID/Trans Masculinity, Expectations and Being "Less of a Man"

[BullDog]

I see many trans guys describing themselves and their experiences without the ick factor and many who do.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I see many trans guys describing themselves and their experiences without the ick factor and many who do.

I am in full agreement that no one should denigrate "female" (or male, for that matter) regardless of how horrific is their personal experience, that's a case by case situation, and those "trans guys" should be educated.

It's really fucked up to be living in the wrong body. I wouldn't expect you to understand. No amount of projection will allow anyone who doesn't experience it to understand.

So I think it's really important to separate someone's personal "ick" and "squeamishness" from reading/hearing their words to mean an generalized attack on the feminine and female (which is not to say it doesn't happen, and this is where we need to educate and correct).

I don't participate much in these threads anymore because it feels like I'm supposed to pull down my pants, or talk about deeply personal shit in order to validate my experiences. It's GROSS, man and I'm not doing it.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I am in full agreement that no one should denigrate "female" (or male, for that matter) regardless of how horrific is their personal experience, that's a case by case situation, and those "trans guys" should be educated.

It's really fucked up to be living in the wrong body. I wouldn't expect you to understand. No amount of projection will allow anyone who doesn't experience it to understand.

So I think it's really important to separate personal "ick" and "squeamishness" from reading/hearing someone's words to mean an generalized attack on the feminine and female.

I don't participate much in these threads anymore because it feels like I'm supposed to pull down my pants, or talk about deeply personal shit in order to validate my experiences. It's GROSS, man and I'm not doing it.

Yes, I would say we are in full agreement that neither the female or male should be denigrated.

No I don't know what it is like to live in the wrong body. I have never claimed that I did.

I personally do believe I belong in a female body and fully claim woman as my gender, but I am a stone butch and don't relate to having breasts, I have a cock (which is not a penis and not a toy), so I have my own issues and ways of relating to my body in non-typical female/woman ways. They may be small potatoes compared to being in the wrong body, but the parts of myself that I don't relate to I don't think of as ick.

I don't think you should have to pull down your pants or talk about anything you don't feel like discussing. I don't do much of that myself.

[The_Lady_Snow]

When there is a thread about the value of man, and a man admits he finds sex that involves a man using his body for pleasure "disturbing", it makes my brain implode,

A. Because the essence of man is not between their legs

B. It's not in how they fuck

C. Man fucks the end

Oh btw receiver does not equate bottom nor submissive.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

When there is a thread about the value of man, and a man admits he finds sex that involves a man using his body for pleasure "disturbing", it makes my brain implode,

A. Because the essence of man is not between their legs

B. It's not in how they fuck

C. Man fucks the end

Oh btw receiver does not equate bottom nor submissive.

Snow, I get the "brain imploding" reaction and the feelings associated with that. I do.

But I really do believe Ender was saying so much more than what he alluded to early on in his post.

To me......and I really do think to Ender, as well (he can correct me if I'm wrong)......what I've pasted below is where he really wanted to end up with regard to that part of his post.

What is most critical, I think, is where we end up......not where we started. And it sounds as if Ender has done a lot of observing, questioning, and soul-searching.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

But having witnessed the diversity within the trans/male id community, I ask why I even care that others aren't like me, consider male/masculine what I don't consider male/masculine, and why a guy gives birth, why a guy doesn't start taking T the minute he admits to himself who he truly is, why a guy has sex with other guys.

The truth is, I don't care, nor judge them, and I realise that all the negative thoughts/beliefs I had regarding guys (and this including biological males who were "feminine") who did these things when I was younger was because I somehow thought that their identity/expression would somehow damage my own worldview on what is male and female, masculine and feminine, and that somehow that would damage my own expression of maleness/masculinity

[Nat]

If man and woman were of equal value in this culture, I don't think manhood would be nearly as strictly policed as it is. I have a cisgender straight male friend who is terrified of small town Texas because he is sensitive, bookish, nurturing and artsy - and he's faced gender policing and gay baiting his whole life because he doesn't conform to that impossible sized box labeled "real man."

I blame Rudyard Kipling.

But seriously, definitions of manhood involving what leisure activities one does or does not enjoy have their roots in a power structure kept in place by clear delineations between men and anybody deemed not to qualify. The rules at their strictest would exclude the vast majority of men.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Disturbing is a strong word Thinker, so with that I do hope that other guys who have/had this thinking have that aha moment because who we are is not how we fuck, present, have between our legs.. It's by what imprint we have left behind and how we are remembered.


Thanks for the dialogue I feel it's something that should be addressed.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Nat

If man and woman were of equal value in this culture, I don't think manhood would be nearly as strictly policed as it is. I have a cisgender straight male friend who is terrified of small town Texas because he is sensitive, bookish, nurturing and artsy - and he's faced gender policing and gay baiting his whole life because he doesn't conform to that impossible sized box labeled "real man."

I blame Rudyard Kipling.

But seriously, definitions of manhood involving what leisure activities one does or does not enjoy have their roots in a power structure kept in place by clear delineations between men and anybody deemed not to qualify. The rules at their strictest would exclude the vast majority of men.

As the mother of a bookish, nerdy, dramatic, sensitive son who prefers cooking to sports and likes his fingernails long....I appreciate this post.

My son is barely 13, and is just peeking at puberty, but already I've heard the "gay" rumblings. It makes me nuts. Whether it turns out that he's gay or straight....I love him....he's my only child and one I thought I'd never have. It just makes me crazy that people have decided his sexuality for him based on the way he runs or throws a ball (or doesn't).

He is a boy. He will be a man. How he defines that is up to him - not society's screwy criteria.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Tranzman

Hi Jen and Bully,

I am curious as to how each of you sees this as 2 very different things. Would you explain this please?

Thank you,

Jesse

Well, I do personally know Men who knit, it is an art form...but, I don't personally know any Men who would play on a Women's basketball team.

I know Men who are submissive, but I don't know any who want to play Women's sports. Zero.

I know men who are dancers, who do all sorts of things one might narrowly see as "women" things....none of them would consider playing Women's sports.

However,

I can see where a young person who won a basketball scholarship as a Woman would want to finish his education and play basketball.

The having a baby thing? I am working on that one Jesse, I may well be at a sticking point on that. I can't imagine you (for example) wanting to have a baby...however, I do actually know Men who given the option would want to carry a baby...but, I don't think any of them would want to play women's basketball either.

So to me, they are different subjects.

I am glad to have these discussions, I am learning a lot.

ps. the sex? I have zero problem with.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Well, I do personally know Men who knit, it is an art form...but, I don't personally know any Men who would play on a Women's basketball team.

I know Men who are submissive, but I don't know any who want to play Women's sports. Zero.

I know men who are dancers, who do all sorts of things one might narrowly see as "women" things....none of them would consider playing Women's sports.

However,

I can see where a young person who won a basketball scholarship as a Woman would want to finish his education and play basketball.

The having a baby thing? I am working on that one Jesse, I may well be at a sticking point on that. I can't imagine you (for example) wanting to have a baby...however, I do actually know Men who given the option would want to carry a baby...but, I don't think any of them would want to play women's basketball either.

So to me, they are different subjects.

I am glad to have these discussions, I am learning a lot.

ps. the sex? I have zero problem with.

I played on the boys lacrosse team in high school. There was a girls team. I chose to play with the boys and where I live - in our illusion of acceptance - they would never tell a girl they couldn't. (Girls have played on the boys HS football team here too.)

I chose to play on the boys team because it was more violent. The girls team didn't allow checking. There was boy on my team who HATED the violence, he was a good player though. The getting beat up thing on the field he didn't go for. He would cry after games and the coach would tell him to stop being a sissy. The other boys picked on him for it...I bet $100 that if he could have played on the girls team without getting his ass kicked for it that he would have liked too.

I went to meetings in the boys locker room just like everyone else. The coach would yell out "girl in the locker room" and they all knew that meant to cover themselves quick. The boys on the team never said anything about me being a girl on the team. They liked me. The coach liked me too because I was rough and played well. The other teams didn't get it and usually had some hot shit to say (only after the game when I took off my helmet and they figured out I was a girl) and we would all end up in fist fights.


With society the way it is - can we really know how many men would like to play on women's teams? We know that women would like to (and in some cases do) play on men's teams. I would personally like to play for the Yankee's. But I don't think we can know that unless it became socially acceptable for men to say so.