Getting Rid of Flippant Language : Check Yourselves Here

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

I do respect people I care about and I can do that and still speak my mind. Would I say Jesus fucking Christ in front of my grandma? Probably not. If someone asked me "how do I look in this?" I'm not gonna lie if it looks bad. But I'm more likely to be more gentle in my delivery.

I know, I'm a big ole UN-PC pain in the ass.....but some people actually like that I am so blunt because I say things other people only wish they could say.

Actually, I think PC and honest are getting confused in this conversation. Thanks to folks like Limbaugh, Politically Correct speech and behaviour has taken quite the beating.

PC, to me, is the idea that it is not okay to call someone by a racial epitath. I'll use a Texas one. It would be very very PI (politically incorrect) of me to call someone a lazy wetback. For those who are not familiar with that ugly term, that refers specifically to those of Mexican heritage and infers that they swam the Rio Grande to come illegally into the US. It is an ugly racist term and I put it in the same category as Gerry and Kyke and Wop and Raghead and Jew and Gypsy and the N word.

Now, if someone is being lazy and they are of Mexican heritage, I could most certainly call them lazy. To add "wetback" to that turns it into a racial slur. That's not okay in my book. Nothing makes that kind of comment okay. There is no amount of honesty or bluntness that can make that okay for me.

Honesty is telling me the dress makes me look fat. Ugly is telling me that the dress makes me look like a fat cow.

I doubt MizzSabra is talking about being ugly in this case.

Originally Posted by apretty

(not directed to anyone, here...)

i hate being called PC, as if that's where the discussion ends. i hate it when anyone tries to reduce what is right and wrong to some kind of "correctness", political or otherwise. i am subversive and edgy, i just don't like stupidity, promise!

I think apretty says it perfectly.

And PC is used (and is being used here, I think) to try to negate why some words will never be okay to say.

And I'm not talking about the C word. That's one I personally reserve for women who earn it (and I don't mean it like Dusa or any who have reclaimed it mean it.)

I'm talking about words that hold more negative emotional charge than can ever be cleared from them. Retarded is one of those (no offense to those who are working to claim that so the pain is negated) for me. I dislike that word intensely for a lot of very personal reasons.

So can we agree not to hide behind "I'm not PC" or "I am PC" and really discuss what these word choices mean for us? I love that we have so many strenuous and strong voices here. I love that we do not agree. I love that we can not agree and still have these chewy, meaty (or tofu-y for the veggie crowd) discussions.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Actually, I think PC and honest are getting confused in this conversation. Thanks to folks like Limbaugh, Politically Correct speech and behaviour has taken quite the beating.

PC, to me, is the idea that it is not okay to call someone by a racial epitath. I'll use a Texas one. It would be very very PI (politically incorrect) of me to call someone a lazy wetback. For those who are not familiar with that ugly term, that refers specifically to those of Mexican heritage and infers that they swam the Rio Grande to come illegally into the US. It is an ugly racist term and I put it in the same category as Gerry and Kyke and Wop and Raghead and Jew and Gypsy and the N word.

Now, if someone is being lazy and they are of Mexican heritage, I could most certainly call them lazy. To add "wetback" to that turns it into a racial slur. That's not okay in my book. Nothing makes that kind of comment okay. There is no amount of honesty or bluntness that can make that okay for me.

Honesty is telling me the dress makes me look fat. Ugly is telling me that the dress makes me look like a fat cow.

I doubt MizzSabra is talking about being ugly in this case.



I think apretty says it perfectly.

And PC is used (and is being used here, I think) to try to negate why some words will never be okay to say.

And I'm not talking about the C word. That's one I personally reserve for women who earn it (and I don't mean it like Dusa or any who have reclaimed it mean it.)

I'm talking about words that hold more negative emotional charge than can ever be cleared from them. Retarded is one of those (no offense to those who are working to claim that so the pain is negated) for me. I dislike that word intensely for a lot of very personal reasons.

So can we agree not to hide behind "I'm not PC" or "I am PC" and really discuss what these word choices mean for us? I love that we have so many strenuous and strong voices here. I love that we do not agree. I love that we can not agree and still have these chewy, meaty (or tofu-y for the veggie crowd) discussions.

Thank you for this post. I agree that the two terms were getting kind of convoluted and confused.

I have a question...or maybe not. Bear with me, as this is where I express my ignorance. To me, and granted....it's not my culture or heritage....but I did not realize that Gypsy might be an offensive term. If it were combined with something (like your lazy etc example), I could see it. But, to me, Gypsies are a beautiful, free people not bound by the same material ties that most of us are, but stronger than most of us in terms of familial ties. I see them as human butterflies moving through life.

I know that I've made reference to you....your hair specifically....as Gypsy hair. Absolutely feel free to engage me outside of this thread if you'd rather, but please note that I never meant it to be offensive, if it was.

This thread is making me THINK during my day to day routine. I went to say something earlier....I can't even remember what it was...but I stopped myself and made an effort to rethink the thought so that it would be more appropriate. That's where it needs to start for me, because what swirls about inside my head always finds its way out eventually. It's definitely one of the most thought-provoking threads I've participated in...for me....in years.

Thank you, 'dusa.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Gemme

but I did not realize that Gypsy might be an offensive term. If it were combined with something (like your lazy etc example), I could see it. But, to me, Gypsies are a beautiful, free people not bound by the same material ties that most of us are, but stronger than most of us in terms of familial ties. I see them as human butterflies moving through life.

I did not know Gypsy was an ugly word until recently. A woman I know who is of Romany descent posted why it is an offensive term.

Now, another woman, also of Romany descent, posted back on that post (it was on an author's blog) about why she DID like the term "gypsy".

Like you, Gemme, I see them as a beautiful, free tribe. However, the word "gypsy" was synonymous with "thief" and "lazy" and "untrustworthy" in many places.

So it's a word I'm trying to drop from my vocabulary. You may call me that as much as you like. I am not offended by the word. And I adore you for caring enough to ask!

[Darth Denkay]

I very much agree that we seem to be conflating respect with censorship. To use my previous example, someone comments that someone else "obviously didn't take their prozac today." That is offensive to me and I will explain it to them. At this point no harm no foul. If however, the person disregards my request to not use the phrase, then I feel disrespected. There are so many other ways to make the same point that aren't offensive - my concern is not the content but the wording.

Communication is hard. We try to keep forums safe but if words or phrases continue to be used that are offensive to some then it no longer becomes safe for them. From there the individual may - understandably - refrain from participating in a dialogue. They are in effect being silenced. I think the expectation that people grow a tougher skin is unreasonable. We all come from different places, our histories have defined our perceptions and created words/phrases that hurt us. To say that we need to grow a tougher skin is basically saying we need to get over it because the other person can't be bothered to listen and take us seriously.

A reference was made that some people just seem to be offended by everything. I don't believe it is my right to determine what someone finds offensive or not. In the case of offensive statements I don't believe the person expressing being offended should be questioned. Words do hurt, and part of developing and maintaining a safe place where all have a voice is refraining from making statements that you know will be offensive.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

Communication is hard. We try to keep forums safe but if words or phrases continue to be used that are offensive to some then it no longer becomes safe for them. From there the individual may - understandably - refrain from participating in a dialogue. They are in effect being silenced. I think the expectation that people grow a tougher skin is unreasonable. We all come from different places, our histories have defined our perceptions and created words/phrases that hurt us. To say that we need to grow a tougher skin is basically saying we need to get over it because the other person can't be bothered to listen and take us seriously.

A reference was made that some people just seem to be offended by everything. I don't believe it is my right to determine what someone finds offensive or not. In the case of offensive statements I don't believe the person expressing being offended should be questioned. Words do hurt, and part of developing and maintaining a safe place where all have a voice is refraining from making statements that you know will be offensive.

I think that the above bolded in red part should be part and parcel of the TOS/FAQ/Community Statement.

I wish I could say that I've always lived my life adhering to that principle. I am a late "kindness" bloomer. I am trying to make up for lost kindness though.

Seriously, this was so very well said.

Today at work, a co-worker asked me if I thought our customers were being "retarded". I told him that wasn't a word I chose to use. He said he only used it for people who were being stupid or lazy. I told him that I chose to call those people stupid and lazy rather than equate retarded with being only stupid and lazy.

I think I got through to him. Thanks to everyone who has posted in this thread. You helped me do that today.

[LadyFlamezzz]

First off , I have met many of you and ya know i just adore ya ...with that said let me add this to this thread. "I" have attempted over the last several years to be PC. Sometimes I manage just fine but then other times i fk up royally. The folks that know me , know my heart is in the right place unless someone was in my face yelling profanities at me or went to physically attack me I'm kinda of a sweet heart,lol
With all that said...

I have to give up and just be me and if i slip i will make my apologies if need be but I cannot any longer put restraints on "me" or my own style of language and yes i have my own style,because it seems that even though I have done my very best at trying to make sure NO one is offended
folks still get offended... it gives me a pain and I won't bother with telling y'all where,lol

In conclusion "look at me being all proper and shit" we are all gonna say things we shouldn't say at some point. period!
We just have to try and not do it repeatedly or vindictively or do it just being an ass!

sign
Me the sometimes improper PC person "never intentionally" to hurt anyone though!

Ps i do think that people are more "up" on what's PC correct in larger cities.

[weatherboi]

When someone uses the word Ghetto to describe something!! Drives me crazy!!

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Oh wait I found something that offends me, seeing someone type or say: dumb redneck

ahem, I am one and I am far from dumb

[apretty]

Originally Posted by June

This just happened today where someone who claims to love, worship and adore ALL Femmes referred to one of them as a pig.

--June

or how about the (very large) butch that makes references to the SIZE of a larger femme?

i think that you should name names so that i can send an xmas card all infected with my current bout of (not really, but it sounds dramatic) swine flu.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by June

I digress here, but I sat in the presence of someone once that expounded on what made someone an "A" list Femme. First thing on the list? Thin. Of course, according to this person, an "A" list Femme could only be had by an "A" list Butch who should be in this order 1) Thin 2) Rich

Oh, Jesus. The things we do to each other in the name of heirarchy. For the record, I am not a fan of the threads devoted to the love of big folks, when I know that many in our community would be all up someone's ass if they started one expounding the beauty of thin folks. And that's June's opinion as a community member FWIW. Have at it

I'll see your and raise you a

i totally get your point on the thin-empowering-thread. but, fact is--the fat-lacking peoples aren't a disenfranchised group. does this make a difference, or no? just curious. i am fuzzyheaded from this faux-swine flu, so i'm sans piss and/or vinegar.

ps. i'm not a super huge fan of the fatgirl threads because they feel a little woo-woo to me and i'm more than my size, i'm my size in addition to lots of other stuff, but it's not the end-all be all. plus, i am not satisfied with my current weight. i fluctuate a lot and i do weight-watchers (not in the last couple of months) and i go for periods of exercising and not exercising--either way, i am interested in my *health* in relation to *my personal* size and it's a (huge fucking) battle. but, again--it begins and ends with my loving myself. today. currently. at this size. /rant. still, i think it (the big folks threads) has the potential to be some amazing space when you come from a place (in real life) where "the fat" is super hush-hush and never mentioned...



ps. i love pigs, i don't even eat pork!