Were you adopted in a closed adoption?

[NotAnAverageGuy]

On the topic of good and bad genes...

anyone think they got the bad genes?

[FeminineAllure]

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/labno...t-depends.aspx

[Bit]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I know no one gives a shit about my pain really (or anyone else's). I totally get that.

Two words: STOP THAT! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}}}}}} What you really know--and know from experience--is that people DO care about you, about your pain, about your life.

Hon, when a person is hurting like all hell every little thing makes it worse, and it's so easy to believe that people are telling one to just go away... but then, maybe that's an echo of the first "go away"?

I think it would probably be impossible to believe that a birth parent had one's best interests at heart if the adoptive parents turn out to be abusive. I know it seems like the world's biggest injustice. I know that a prom seems totally insignificant compared to a lifetime of torture...

...and I remember the 1960s....when a man owned--literally, like a car or a house--a man owned his daughter and her body in the US. Permission to go to the prom might have been a reward for your mother's compliance, Jen, but you would have been given up no matter what, because your mother had no legal rights whatever and would have had none no matter what age she might have been. A woman was her father's legal property, or that of his male heir, until she married and became her husband's legal property.

Your mother had no choice, Jen, even though it sounded to you like she did. She had no choice. It was a completely different world. She might today mention the prom casually as if it were important, but back then girls knew when they did and didn't have a choice. The prom was a sop, something to pacify her so he didn't have to endure her grief and pain.

(The strength of the Women's Libbers to endure society's rage in the 1960s just blows me away... I don't know that I could have been that strong. I do know that they wouldn't recognize this world which is our legacy from them, except as it lived in their hearts: that no woman should be the property of anyone but herself. Goddess, how the world has changed!)

So Jen, I understand that you have been doubly betrayed--but I believe it was your grandfather who betrayed you the first time, not your mother.

For what it's worth, darlin, I understand about your father's death finally letting you be free enough to deal with this buried pain. I'm sure it caught you completely off guard--things coming up after someone dies have caught me off guard too *wry smile*--and I think you'll be able to deal with it and process it in your own time, but oy! doesn't it make life uncomfortable in the meantime?!

There's this book I am once AGAIN trying to read, called [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Heart-Spiritual-Advantage-Childhood/dp/0671797840"]Legacy of the Heart[/ame] by Wayne Muller. He's a minister who spent years working with people who survived abusive childhoods. I usually have to stop partway through it because it brings up such ferocious anger in me, and that interferes with my relationship with my mother. But this last time when I started it, I realized that each time I come back to it, I've made a lot of progress in dealing with my childhood pain and anger.

If you can handle the fact that the book is written by a minister, I highly recommend it. He periodically quotes from several faiths, mostly Christian and Buddhist but sometimes others, but he doesn't seem to need to preach the necessity of belief at anyone---tis more like offering reassurance to those who need spiritual backup---and he seems to really understand what it does to people to have lived through such difficult lives, to have suffered so enormously as children.

[~Red~]

I was adopted when I was 4mo's old, before that I was in foster care. From what I can gather, my birth mother was young, unmarried and Jewish.The father was Cree/Scottish, not a good combination. The young woman was pressured into giving me up because of racial issues on the side of the birth mother's family. Back in the 60's having a child that is part native was seriously frowned upon.

So here I am. I knew I was adopted very early, my folks didn't want me to have any issues. My cousin is adopted as well, and is bitter and a very angry person.

I did start a search for my birth mother when I was 20, as I was having some health issues that could be due to genetics. So I did get a hold of her, our conversation was pretty brief, I found out my genetic history including my own cultural background. I was very grateful for that, but neither of us wanted to persue a relationship - her for the fact she wanted that part of her past to remain so and I because she had no right to be.

My own hell started after my adoption. From the time I can remember, I was verbally attacked and threatened to be sent back the agency. The older I got the assaults became physical as well. I ended up being a very angry teen and young adult. I had major abandonment issues which have only dissipated in the last decade or so.

What I am mad at is that these agencies don't check deep enough into the prospective parents even to this day. It should not be a given that every person has the right to have/adopt a chld. I know a person who actually sued the agency and settled out of court. My was through the gov't and there was no way to get recourse.

On the flip side of all of this, I have become a kind, loving and very affectionate person. I make sure the folks in my life know how important and loved they are. I wouldn't be the person I am today I don't think without my childhood being so messed up.

~Red~

[bigbutchmistie]

I agree Red I'm the same way what I went through has made me the kind loving really affectionate person I am today.

I.want everyone in my life to know how much I love and care about each and everyone of them.

Great Post

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I got the "bad" genes for sure, I don't rely on much of the scientific spew.



FA's article to me seems to talk more about parents trying to mess with nature when it comes to "splicing" out bad and good genes.

http://www.amfor.net/acs/

Artcile on ACS- Adopted Child Syndrome

[FeminineAllure]

The point I am trying to make about bad genes vs good genes is for example...

I have Bipolar. I was finally diagnosed at 21. Was that bad gene with me from birth?

Yes. Did me or my family know this? No. If we had all known my medical history regaurding this would it have mattered? Perhaps in getting a quicker diagnosis.
So, I take medication and have been hospital free and stabilized for over 10 years now!
If I had not been adopted would I still have bipolar? Yes. Would that have made any significant difference in the quality of my life? I don't think so.

I have some other medical issues I am dealing with. Are they genetic or lifestyle? I can choose to eat better nutritionally which would lower my risk factors to certain predispositions. Etc...So is it lifestyle that plays with some factors or solely genetics? I believe a bit of both. But some things are my responsibility such as taking my medications to prevent symptoms. Not because I am adopted.

As far as the article shared
I appreciate you sharing it but don't agree one bit about adoptees having more:

conflict with authority (for example truancy);
preoccupation with excessive fantasy;
pathological lying;
stealing;
running away (from home, school, group homes, situations);
learning difficulties, under-achievement, over-achievement;
lack of impulse control (acting out, promiscuity, sex crimes);
fascination with fire, fire-setting
"In twenty-five years of practice I have seen hundreds of adoptees, most adopted in infancy. In case after case, I have observed what I have come to call the Adopted Child Syndrome, which may include pathological lying, stealing, truancy, manipulation, shallowness of attachment, provocation of parents and other authorities, threatened or actual running away, promiscuity, learning problems, fire-setting, and increasingly serious antisocial behavior, often leading to court custody. It may include an extremely negative or grandiose self-image, low frustration tolerance, and an absence of normal guilt or anxiety."

It sounds like his practice was filled with sociopaths by the traits he is describing.
Do adoptees have a higher incidence of becoming a sociopath then non adoptees in mainstream society? Yes. But is it nature over nurture? I believe we can change our destiny. Some factors are a choice. Let's look at alcoholism. Is it genetic? Yes. So if an alcoholic passes the bad genes of alcoholism to a child will that child whether biological or adopted have a higher predisposition to becoming an alcoholic? Yes. But there are still choices and help available to adoptees as well as biological children. And if this person learns something very beneficial from having the bad gene of alcoholism that perhaps changes others lives is that gene truly a bad one?

I will just end my rambling with two quotes I live by:

For all of the pain, abuse, anger experienced by some including myself who are adopted
"To forgive is to set a prisoner free, and discover that the prisoner was you". -Lewis B Smedes, "Forgiveness - The Power to Change the Past"

If I did not learn to forgive my biological parents, my adoptive parents I would be and remain the prisoner not them.

"I've learned that our background and circumstances
May have influenced who we are,
But we are responsible for who we become."

James Rhinehart



"My life is my message"...... Your life is your message.
Mahatma Gandhi

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

I got the "bad" genes for sure, I don't rely on much of the scientific spew.



FA's article to me seems to talk more about parents trying to mess with nature when it comes to "splicing" out bad and good genes.

http://www.amfor.net/acs/

Artcile on ACS- Adopted Child Syndrome

See, I think its being adopted, not your genes at all.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by ~Red~

I was adopted when I was 4mo's old, before that I was in foster care. From what I can gather, my birth mother was young, unmarried and Jewish.The father was Cree/Scottish, not a good combination. The young woman was pressured into giving me up because of racial issues on the side of the birth mother's family. Back in the 60's having a child that is part native was seriously frowned upon.

So here I am. I knew I was adopted very early, my folks didn't want me to have any issues. My cousin is adopted as well, and is bitter and a very angry person.

I did start a search for my birth mother when I was 20, as I was having some health issues that could be due to genetics. So I did get a hold of her, our conversation was pretty brief, I found out my genetic history including my own cultural background. I was very grateful for that, but neither of us wanted to persue a relationship - her for the fact she wanted that part of her past to remain so and I because she had no right to be.

My own hell started after my adoption. From the time I can remember, I was verbally attacked and threatened to be sent back the agency. The older I got the assaults became physical as well. I ended up being a very angry teen and young adult. I had major abandonment issues which have only dissipated in the last decade or so.

What I am mad at is that these agencies don't check deep enough into the prospective parents even to this day. It should not be a given that every person has the right to have/adopt a chld. I know a person who actually sued the agency and settled out of court. My was through the gov't and there was no way to get recourse.

On the flip side of all of this, I have become a kind, loving and very affectionate person. I make sure the folks in my life know how important and loved they are. I wouldn't be the person I am today I don't think without my childhood being so messed up.

~Red~

Oh, thank you for posting! I am part Native American too, and my adoptive parents were not told. Probably the agency.

I was abused mentally and physically too. I am so sorry you went through that. They don't check out the families well enough, though in my case, my parents being missionaries probably looked great on the application to adopt.

You are so right, we would not be the strong women we are today if we did nto have our childhoods.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Bit

Two words: STOP THAT! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}}}}}} What you really know--and know from experience--is that people DO care about you, about your pain, about your life.

Hon, when a person is hurting like all hell every little thing makes it worse, and it's so easy to believe that people are telling one to just go away... but then, maybe that's an echo of the first "go away"?

I think it would probably be impossible to believe that a birth parent had one's best interests at heart if the adoptive parents turn out to be abusive. I know it seems like the world's biggest injustice. I know that a prom seems totally insignificant compared to a lifetime of torture...

...and I remember the 1960s....when a man owned--literally, like a car or a house--a man owned his daughter and her body in the US. Permission to go to the prom might have been a reward for your mother's compliance, Jen, but you would have been given up no matter what, because your mother had no legal rights whatever and would have had none no matter what age she might have been. A woman was her father's legal property, or that of his male heir, until she married and became her husband's legal property.

Your mother had no choice, Jen, even though it sounded to you like she did. She had no choice. It was a completely different world. She might today mention the prom casually as if it were important, but back then girls knew when they did and didn't have a choice. The prom was a sop, something to pacify her so he didn't have to endure her grief and pain.

(The strength of the Women's Libbers to endure society's rage in the 1960s just blows me away... I don't know that I could have been that strong. I do know that they wouldn't recognize this world which is our legacy from them, except as it lived in their hearts: that no woman should be the property of anyone but herself. Goddess, how the world has changed!)

So Jen, I understand that you have been doubly betrayed--but I believe it was your grandfather who betrayed you the first time, not your mother.

For what it's worth, darlin, I understand about your father's death finally letting you be free enough to deal with this buried pain. I'm sure it caught you completely off guard--things coming up after someone dies have caught me off guard too *wry smile*--and I think you'll be able to deal with it and process it in your own time, but oy! doesn't it make life uncomfortable in the meantime?!

There's this book I am once AGAIN trying to read, called Legacy of the Heart by Wayne Muller. He's a minister who spent years working with people who survived abusive childhoods. I usually have to stop partway through it because it brings up such ferocious anger in me, and that interferes with my relationship with my mother. But this last time when I started it, I realized that each time I come back to it, I've made a lot of progress in dealing with my childhood pain and anger.

If you can handle the fact that the book is written by a minister, I highly recommend it. He periodically quotes from several faiths, mostly Christian and Buddhist but sometimes others, but he doesn't seem to need to preach the necessity of belief at anyone---tis more like offering reassurance to those who need spiritual backup---and he seems to really understand what it does to people to have lived through such difficult lives, to have suffered so enormously as children.

Bit, you may be the most kind woman I know. Hugs.

You are right, in fact I remember my adopted dad telling me in the 60's that he had complete control of me and could do whatever he wanted to to me and no one could or would do anything. No one would believe me, becasue he was a missionary and evangelist. Yes, it had to be my grandparents...which still is creepy, but maybe not as?

I will get that book. Thank you!

I do feel kind of silly at 46 going through this and it is hard to hear things like it's beating a dead horse or that they loved me sooo much, they gave me up, which I think is crap. It really never occurred to me that some of my issues were from adoption. I thought it was all my dad and being queer.

I don't want anyone to think that I have used being adopted as an excuse not to excell...in fact, I have excellent coping skills...while still having health and mental health issues steming from trauma and abuse.

Thank you as always for being such a supportive friend. You consistently make a difference in my life.

[Bit]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I love you, hon. It hurts to watch you hurt so much--and yet I know it's necessary. You have to deal with this crap--and I know it IS crap; I hate that you're saddled with it!--in order to move forward with your life.

The heavens know I have felt ridiculously silly dealing with my old pain and anger at my mother at this age of 51, so I hear you on feeling silly! I keep thinking, "WTF?? I dealt with all this years ago!" but yanno, there are buried layers and they don't come to the top until it's safe to deal with them.

I guess that means you and I are safe now, eh? Even though it doesn't feel that way at all!

About this idea that your mother gave you up out of love, you're right, it's ridiculous. She gave you up because she was forced to. In the 1950s and 60s, girls were commonly forced to.

I will say that there really are some people who give their children up out of love, and do their damnedest to make sure the kids are given to good parents, better parents than they themselves can be. Those people are the ones who grieve, who wonder for the rest of their lives if the kids are okay, who pray for them (or send energy), who never stop loving and never stop hurting. Your mom might not be one of them, there might not be many of them... but they do exist.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Bit

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I love you, hon. It hurts to watch you hurt so much--and yet I know it's necessary. You have to deal with this crap--and I know it IS crap; I hate that you're saddled with it!--in order to move forward with your life.

The heavens know I have felt ridiculously silly dealing with my old pain and anger at my mother at this age of 51, so I hear you on feeling silly! I keep thinking, "WTF?? I dealt with all this years ago!" but yanno, there are buried layers and they don't come to the top until it's safe to deal with them.

I guess that means you and I are safe now, eh? Even though it doesn't feel that way at all!

About this idea that your mother gave you up out of love, you're right, it's ridiculous. She gave you up because she was forced to. In the 1950s and 60s, girls were commonly forced to.

I will say that there really are some people who give their children up out of love, and do their damnedest to make sure the kids are given to good parents, better parents than they themselves can be. Those people are the ones who grieve, who wonder for the rest of their lives if the kids are okay, who pray for them (or send energy), who never stop loving and never stop hurting. Your mom might not be one of them, there might not be many of them... but they do exist.

You know, thats a great point. Yes, you and I are safe and loved now which makes even being able to think about this stuff possible. Thanks for,pointing that out! Smile.

I do know that some people do give their children away out of love, or what they think is love. I hope that those mothers and fathers will actually pick out the new parents themselves and stay involved and make sure their offspring know their heritage.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

On the topic of good and bad genes...

anyone think they got the bad genes?

I think that adoption in itself can casue so many problems, Its difficult to see what the genes would have created if we had not been adopted.

Have I had lots of mental problems in my life? YES.