"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Victoria

Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? Just my two cents.

And you would be wrong again on the meaning of Transgender.

I am Transgendered. I am Male-Identified (as I stated above) not Female-Identified. I do not identify as both.

A Transgendered person can identify as either Male or Female, equal or varying degrees of both or neither. One Gender, Gender Fluid or Genderless.

The definition of Transgender is: One who identifies with a gender they were not assigned/born with (Sex at birth).

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Victoria

Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? Just my two cents.

And more food for thought before I go for the night: To confuse you even more, which we love to do that around here...LoL... There are Femmes who are Female-Identified who also identify as Transgendered. For them, they have accepted Femme as their gender identity. Also, they may or may not identify as Lesbians.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

And more food for thought before I go for the night: To confuse you even more, which we love to do that around here...LoL... There are Femmes who are Female-Identified who also identify as Transgendered. For them, they have accepted Femme as their gender identity. Also, they may or may not identify as Lesbians.

...and there are male ID butches who identify as lesbians and date other butches... and and and... variety is the spice of life eh?

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Victoria welcome to the forums... there's plenty to explore and read about to get a feel for the place for yourself too.

We're alot more than just ID's... we're alot of good peeps also.

Again welcome,
Metro

[PapaC]

I was totally going to do the whole "variety is the spice of life" post, but you beat me to it, Metro.

and yes, welcome to the site, Victoria.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

...and there are male ID butches who identify as lesbians and date other butches... and and and... variety is the spice of life eh?

----------------------------
Victoria welcome to the forums... there's plenty to explore and read about to get a feel for the place for yourself too.

We're alot more than just ID's... we're alot of good peeps also.

Again welcome,
Metro

[Blue_Daddy-O]

And Yes, you would be preachin' to the choir here! LoLoL! But good you threw out another example for Victoria's enlightenment and anyone else who has a limited definition of Transgendered!

Originally Posted by Metropolis

...and there are male ID butches who identify as lesbians and date other butches... and and and... variety is the spice of life eh?

Again welcome,
Metro

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I find it interesting that you acknowledge there's is a lot of butch femme lesbians on the site (and there is)... and then in the next breath use "weird" and "makes me all squicky"...

Perhaps since we all expect our ID's respected, we might extend the same kindness to others.

Met, I don't find Turasultana explaining "being called Lesbian makes me feel weird" to be a knock at being a Lesbian. It wouldn't be any different than me saying "being called a girl makes me feel all weird and freaky". Although, that wouldn't be my verbiage, I'm more likely to say, "It doesn't feel right to me". Yet it does make me feel weird and freaky.

Why does it feel disrespectful to you?

[QueenofQueens]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

And Yes, you would be preachin' to the choir here! LoLoL! But good you threw out another example for Victoria's enlightenment and anyone else who has a limited definition of Transgendered!






Met, I don't find Turasultana explaining "being called Lesbian makes me feel weird" to be a knock at being a Lesbian. It wouldn't be any different than me saying "being called a girl makes me feel all weird and freaky". Although, that wouldn't be my verbage, I'm more likey to say, "It doesn't feel right to me". Yet it does make me feel weird and freaky.

Why does it feel desrespectful to you?

Hey Blue, I know you're addressing Met, but as a lesbian I'd like to answer this too. I'll use Tura's post as an example below, but I'd like to make it clear that I'm not singling her out intentionally.
That said, there's a big difference between saying "I don't like chocolate" and saying "Chocolate is disgusting". There's an even bigger difference between saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a non specific context and saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a venue known to be frequented by chocolate lovers.
When a non lesbian says "Lesbianism is freaky or squicky" within a lesbian friendly venue where there are many lesbians who feel quite opposed to that sentiment, it's at best thoughtless and callous and at worst homophobic (whether it's an internal or external manifestation of homophobia is up for debate).
I have no problem with Tura's (or anyone else's) identity or gender expressions, nor their feelings about who they are within the context of their own lived experience. What is hurtful is how my gender identity and sexual preference are summarily dismissed via pejorative language. I see no viable reasons for any of us to define ourselves in negative terms, as that almost always occurs at someone else's expense.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by QueenofQueens

Hey Blue, I know you're addressing Met, but as a lesbian I'd like to answer this too. I'll use Tura's post as an example below, but I'd like to make it clear that I'm not singling her out intentionally.
That said, there's a big difference between saying "I don't like chocolate" and saying "Chocolate is disgusting". There's an even bigger difference between saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a non specific context and saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a venue known to be frequented by chocolate lovers.
When a non lesbian says "Lesbianism is freaky or squicky" within a lesbian friendly venue where there are many lesbians who feel quite opposed to that sentiment, it's at best thoughtless and callous and at worst homophobic (whether it's an internal or external manifestation of homophobia is up for debate).
I have no problem with Tura's (or anyone else's) identity or gender expressions, nor their feelings about who they are within the context of their own lived experience. What is hurtful is how my gender identity and sexual preference are summarily dismissed via pejorative language. I see no viable reasons for any of us to define ourselves in negative terms, as that almost always occurs at someone else's expense.

Originally Posted by turasultana

I'm femme, but i'd never refer to myself as a lesbian, my partner who is butch, would NEVER call himself a lesbian. It's weird just typing that. makes me all squicky....

I am interested to hear from anyone who identifies as a Lesbian who also finds the statement offensive. So Thank You for explaining to me how it makes you feel as well.

Yes, QueenofQueens, I completely understand when a person says that Lesbianism is disgusting, sick and perverted that this would be hurtful. The intent is derogatory, judgmental and prejudice. Although, I don't identify as a Lesbian this would be hurtful to me as well because there are many I love that do identify as a Lesbian and I have also identified as a Lesbian myself. But even if I didn't know a Lesbian or had never been one, it would still be hurtful to me to watch/hear/see a person put someone else down in this manner and not be accepting of another person's differences. And not be concerned with how their words would make someone else feel. I am not one to sit by and watch. I would have alot to say to anyone who would treat another person that way.

When I'm called a Lesbian it feels unnatural. It doesn't feel right. It feels weird. It's the same to me as being called a girl. Not because either are disgusting to me, but because I do not relate to being either one.

I would have asked Turasultana's intent before I assumed she was stating her feelings in a derogatory way.

If Turasultana feels similar to the way I do, it would be unfair for someone to automatically assume that because I don't like being called a Lesbian, that I find being one is disgusting or a negative.

When I read what Turasultana wrote, I could relate. As I'm sure there are others who do as well. And I'm sure there are also others who would take offense.

Where is the line drawn? Are we not allowed to say that being called a Lesbian makes us feel a negative emotion __________ (fill in the blank)?

QueenofQueens, do you feel that Turasultana was coming from a derogatory place, as if to call Lesbians disgusting?

Turasultana, maybe you could explain to use more of why you feel the way you do?

This is all so very interesting to me. The division and misunderstandings. I do believe it is very good for us to talk about it and to understand where we are all coming from. There is more I want to say...but my brain is getting very very tired and it's way past my bedtime and I can't write or think much more...LoL.

But I would like to continue this discussion tomorrow and really understand better.

[WILDCAT]

I SO feel that the recent "BUMP" in this thread was meant to be inflammatory.

Good luck folks, but please be careful to not be set up to turn on each other.

THAT is my queer GUT feeling here.

*Some things just seem to be MUCH TOO CLEVER in an attempt to "appear confused", ya know? I personally didn't appreciate the "directness" with/in the assumptions. Totally instigative in my way of thinking. (And disrespecting every one of us, queer, how we ID, transgengered, etc...)

PEACE
WILDCAT

[turasultana]

As I stated, and maybe I said it in a way that only made sense in my brain at midnite, but I just meant that it felt weird to ever use the word lesbian in relation to my partner who is totally not one as far as his identity. i didn't mean more than that. It was just felt disconcerting to me. i was being flip... bad word choice got misinterpreted. That is all.

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

I am interested to hear from anyone who identifies as a Lesbian who also finds the statement offensive. So Thank You for explaining to me how it makes you feel as well.

Yes, QueenofQueens, I completely understand when a person says that Lesbianism is disgusting, sick and perverted that this would be hurtful. The intent is derogatory, judgmental and prejudice. Although, I don't identify as a Lesbian this would be hurtful to me as well because there are many I love that do identify as a Lesbian and I have also identified as a Lesbian myself. But even if I didn't know a Lesbian or had never been one, it would still be hurtful to me to watch/hear/see a person put someone else down in this manner and not be accepting of another person's differences. And not be concerned with how their words would make someone else feel. I am not one to sit by and watch. I would have alot to say to anyone who would treat another person that way.

When I'm called a Lesbian it feels unnatural. It doesn't feel right. It feels weird. It's the same to me as being called a girl. Not because either are disgusting to me, but because I do not relate to being either one.

I would have asked Turasultana's intent before I assumed she was stating her feelings in a derogatory way.

If Turasultana feels similar to the way I do, it would be unfair for someone to automatically assume that because I don't like being called a Lesbian, that I find being one is disgusting or a negative.

When I read what Turasultana wrote, I could relate. As I'm sure there are others who do as well. And I'm sure there are also others who would take offense.

Where is the line drawn? Are we not allowed to say that being called a Lesbian makes us feel a negative emotion __________ (fill in the blank)?

QueenofQueens, do you feel that Turasultana was coming from a derogatory place, as if to call Lesbians disgusting?

Turasultana, maybe you could explain to use more of why you feel the way you do?

This is all so very interesting to me. The division and misunderstandings. I do believe it is very good for us to talk about it and to understand where we are all coming from. There is more I want to say...but my brain is getting very very tired and it's way past my bedtime and I can't write or think much more...LoL.

But I would like to continue this discussion tomorrow and really understand better.

[QueenofQueens]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

I am interested to hear from anyone who identifies as a Lesbian who also finds the statement offensive. So Thank You for explaining to me how it makes you feel as well.

Yes, QueenofQueens, I completely understand when a person says that Lesbianism is disgusting, sick and perverted that this would be hurtful. The intent is derogatory, judgmental and prejudice. Although, I don't identify as a Lesbian this would be hurtful to me as well because there are many I love that do identify as a Lesbian and I have also identified as a Lesbian myself. But even if I didn't know a Lesbian or had never been one, it would still be hurtful to me to watch/hear/see a person put someone else down in this manner and not be accepting of another person's differences. And not be concerned with how their words would make someone else feel. I am not one to sit by and watch. I would have alot to say to anyone who would treat another person that way.

When I'm called a Lesbian it feels unnatural. It doesn't feel right. It feels weird. It's the same to me as being called a girl. Not because either are disgusting to me, but because I do not relate to being either one.

I would have asked Turasultana's intent before I assumed she was stating her feelings in a derogatory way.

If Turasultana feels similar to the way I do, it would be unfair for someone to automatically assume that because I don't like being called a Lesbian, that I find being one is disgusting or a negative.

When I read what Turasultana wrote, I could relate. As I'm sure there are others who do as well. And I'm sure there are also others who would take offense.

Where is the line drawn? Are we not allowed to say that being called a Lesbian makes us feel a negative emotion __________ (fill in the blank)?

QueenofQueens, do you feel that Turasultana was coming from a derogatory place, as if to call Lesbians disgusting?

Turasultana, maybe you could explain to use more of why you feel the way you do?

This is all so very interesting to me. The division and misunderstandings. I do believe it is very good for us to talk about it and to understand where we are all coming from. There is more I want to say...but my brain is getting very very tired and it's way past my bedtime and I can't write or think much more...LoL.

But I would like to continue this discussion tomorrow and really understand better.

Blue, I've been meaning to respond to this and only had the time to do so now.
I want to make my opinion and intentions crystal clear with regard to my previous post in this thread because I feel that you largely missed the point of what I said. I will enumerate my points to avoid further confusion and because I realize that a lot of ground has been covered in this thread.

1. I never believed that Tura was being intentionally hurtful.
2. People are capable of being insulting or hurtful without intending to do so, sometimes folks just act callously or thoughtlessly and need to be called on it.
3. When people feel the need to define themselves in negative terms, i.e. "I'm not lesbian, I'm not pro choice, I'm not a butch" and do so adamantly among people who do identify in those ways, the implication in their words can easily be read as pejorative by those who ARE what they decry they are NOT.


I realize some people have a lot of hurt attached to the word "lesbian" because of painful, personal experiences. Many, MANY of us as butches and femmes were wholesale rejected by the larger lesbian community or partners we cared for, simply because of how we interpret our queerness, myself included.

Some of us have chosen to embrace the identity of lesbian as an act of sheer defiance and as an open acknowledgment of our homosexuality. Some of us, instead, have chosen to reject the word. But I sincerely wonder, as a member of the former group, if you have chosen to reject the word "lesbian", and the identity, and are defining in negative terms, then what as a female bodied homosexual do you embrace in its stead? Have you truly made peace with the fact that you are homosexual? Are you okay with everything that being a female bodied person in relationship with another female bodied person manifests, entails and means? If not, then why not? These are hypothetical questions that I ponder and not directed toward any individual here.

For those who reject the identity "lesbian", I would ask for you all to think about how it would feel if you heard, for example, someone proclaiming, "I am NOT transensual, it squicks me out", or stone, or nesbian (not equating these words, just using them as examples), or whatever words you choose to embrace, simply in order to define yourselves. To me, it feels like coming out as a femme to the larger glbt community all fucking over again. I'm sick to death of having to defend and explain being a lesbian, and what that looks like presented by me, to other homosexuals especially.

If someone were to mistakenly presume that all b/f folks are transensual, for example, I (who am not transensual) do not feel the need to defend myself by breaking my id down in a way that would hurt those who are transensual. Isn't it hard enough for people to just move through the world as queer without hearing that their identities and sexual proclivities make other members of their community nauseous? That sort of judgment, couched in the safe haven of "personal opinion" feels secretly fascistic to me. Again, I want to know, why must anyone define themselves in negative terms?

Regardless of our choices regarding our identities, I think it behooves every single one of us to examine why we reject or embrace certain sexual descriptors, and sexual proclivities, to ensure that there is not the least trace of internalized homophobia or misogyny leading the way. Yes, I get that diversity is grand, and that all our triggers aren't tripped the same, and I say vive' le difference if it's a genuine expression of who you are. If not, taking a moment to face a truth that might make you uncomfortable, but which will ultimately help liberate your authentic self, is crucial to our evolution, individually and as a group. Examining our own potential homophobia and misogyny is as important an act of introspection as any regarding privilege or racism, especially within a community which is predominately queer and female bodied.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

And you would be wrong again on the meaning of Transgender.

I am Transgendered. I am Male-Identified (as I stated above) not Female-Identified. I do not identify as both.

A Transgendered person can identify as either Male or Female, equal or varying degrees of both or neither. One Gender, Gender Fluid or Genderless.

The definition of Transgender is: One who identifies with a gender they were not assigned/born with (Sex at birth).

I have heard transgendered described or defined as Victoria stated, as well. That it is a more spiritual based "gender" view and like some define "butch" or "femme" is in fact a third non-binary gender.

I think sometimes the liberties we ( society) take with language and the freedom to interpret "words" has become so easy to do and culture moves so quickly anymore, it is truly just hard to keep up.

Some folks place a "negative" connotation on the word "lesbian" , because it became viewed as the "made for men porn girl on girl" action. It got a bad rap within our own community, because we allowed it to. Ask five people to define "stone butch" and you may get five different variations.

I try not to get defensive these days when someone says ( or types) something that doesn't mesh with my internal dictionary, because with all of the influences on that dictionary, the very definitions may evolve and they may end up coming full circle if I stick around and watch.

I still have a lot of things I don't quite understand regarding gender choice/ expression relating to sexual choice/ expression and hell, I may never totally "get it" because it varies so from individual to individual. What I have come to understand, is that it is not for me to "judge" . Also that some folks are just easier to ask questions to than others. It takes a while to learn to speak the same language when it changes so much either geographically or within different "generations".