Ode to Butches

[MizzSabra]

I find it interesting that some butches are totally *revolted*, dare I say threatened, by a man finding them attractive but on the other hand have absolutely no issue with objectifying a straight female, who would probably be *revolted* by some butch finding them attractive.

ETA: Love me some butch boobs!

[BullDog]

I haven't seen any butches objectifying straight females in this thread, and I haven't seen any butches say or express that they are revolted by a man potentially finding them attractive.

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I haven't seen any butches objectifying straight females in this thread, and I haven't seen any butches say or express that they are revolted by a man potentially finding them attractive.

I didn't say in this thread (about objectifying straight women). And I have seen several posts in this thread about how some butches feel about a MAN finding them attractive.

[WILDCAT]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

I didn't say in this thread (about objectifying straight women). And I have seen several posts in this thread about how some butches feel about a MAN finding them attractive.

And?

If I would say I don't find any men interested in me TOO INTERESTING... that doesn't mean I would feel "revolted" if they were. I'm as queer as a seven dollar bill. Why would I have to coddle that sentiment - especially HERE on this site? And to please whom? And that should be understood, not "offensive". That is a bit strong to infer ("revolted"), don't you think? And not the way I am at all anyway. (And sorry if someone said that and I missed it.)

Actually, it happens to me sometimes with men around here in my area - and I don't feel anything derrogatory about it. (Well, unless they were sexually inappropriate or disrespectful!) I however, might amuse myself that it surely must be they're "closet queers" as I don't have much "out there" with my yin side - well, that I think anyway. But, I am who I am. So, who knows? That is my caring, humorous side though "thinking that must be a queer side" of a man - to be attracted to ME! Smile.

I think straight men are attracted to straight men. Straight women to women... It happens. And all kinds of variations... (?) So?

And this does feel like a derail now, whoever wrote that. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Seems like folks are misreading a lot of things here though, and there is much confusion for this.

Later!

Wildcat

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by WILDCAT

And?

If I would say I don't find any men interested in me TOO INTERESTING... that doesn't mean I would feel "revolted" if they were. I'm as queer as a seven dollar bill. Why would I have to coddle that sentiment - especially HERE on this site? And to please whom? And that should be understood, not "offensive". That is a bit strong to infer ("revolted"), don't you think? And not the way I am at all anyway. (And sorry if someone said that and I missed it.)

Actually, it happens to me sometimes with men around here in my area - and I don't feel anything derrogatory about it. (Well, unless they were sexually inappropriate or disrespectful!) I however, might amuse myself that it surely must be they're "closet queers" as I don't have much "out there" with my yin side - well, that I think anyway. But, I am who I am. So, who knows? That is my caring, humorous side though "thinking that must be a queer side" of a man - to be attracted to ME! Smile.

I think straight men are attracted to straight men. Straight women to women... It happens. And all kinds of variations... (?) So?

And this does feel like a derail now, whoever wrote that. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Seems like folks are misreading a lot of things here though, and there is much confusion for this.

Later!

Wildcat

Now my words I choose are being monitored for correct usage according to you? I think not.

I have encountered butches who are totally offended/revolted/threatened when a man finds them attractive, but turn around and will say "Ooooh, that Angelina Jolie/Sarah Palin/Jessica Simpson/Britney Spears/blah blah blah, now I would fuck the living daylights out of her." Hypocritical much?

Later!

My ode to butches: Be who you are, be authentic. You don't even have to work on my car or fix my plumbing. That tie? Go ahead and wear it, if you are so inclined. And yeah, show me some butch cleavage once in awhile.

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

Now my words I choose are being monitored for correct usage according to you? I think not.

I have encountered butches who are totally offended/revolted/threatened when a man finds them attractive, but turn around and will say "Ooooh, that Angelina Jolie/Sarah Palin/Jessica Simpson/Britney Spears/blah blah blah, now I would fuck the living daylights out of her." Hypocritical much?

Later!

My ode to butches: Be who you are, be authentic. You don't even have to work on my car or fix my plumbing. That tie? Go ahead and wear it, if you are so inclined. And yeah, show me some butch cleavage once in awhile.

Oh, but only men objectify, Sabra. Well, men and you.

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by Hudson

Oh, but only men objectify, Sabra. Well, men and you.

At least I'm not hypocritical about it.

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

Wow...
Never thought of it this way.
A light bulb moment for me for sure, what a profound statement.

I will admit when I was with my ex (who I couldn't stand) I had a crush on Martha Stewart. I was attracted to her attention to detail and cooking skills.

I was one of those who felt objectified and erased by the ode to butches post written by a bio male.

Hypocritical would be an honest assessment MizzSabra, and Im quite embarrassed to say Im guilty.

I will also say that this site often feels like a safe haven for me in a world where I am often invisible. A place where I dont expect to be wolf-whisteled by construction workers or pinched on the ass while standing in line. Because we know that shit happens in the real world.
And I probably wouldnt have ever objectified Martha Stewart to her face if she ever showed up on this site.

Love this post.

And Martha's attention to detail - right with you there.

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

Wow...
Never thought of it this way.
A light bulb moment for me for sure, what a profound statement.

I will admit when I was with my ex (who I couldn't stand) I had a crush on Martha Stewart. I was attracted to her attention to detail and cooking skills.

I was one of those who felt objectified and erased by the ode to butches post written by a bio male.

Hypocritical would be an honest assessment MizzSabra, and Im quite embarrassed to say Im guilty.

I will also say that this site often feels like a safe haven for me in a world where I am often invisible. A place where I dont expect to be wolf-whisteled by construction workers or pinched on the ass while standing in line. Because we know that shit happens in the real world.
And I probably wouldnt have ever objectified Martha Stewart to her face if she ever showed up on this site.

Thanks for this.

Yeah, the guys wolf whistling or "hey baby"ing me don't really get a second glance. Whatever. I know that shit happens. We can't be the world's police (well actually the U.S. thinks they are, but that's another thread).

Do I objectify my boifriend? Hell yeah I do!
Does she objectify me? Hell yeah she does!
Do we like it? Hell yeah!

Objectification isn't really a problem for me, it's the hypocrisy that comes with some people that bothers me. "I can do it, but god forbid if anyone says anything to me!" That is the shit that gets my goat.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

Objectification isn't really a problem for me, it's the hypocrisy that comes with some people that bothers me. "I can do it, but god forbid if anyone says anything to me!" That is the shit that gets my goat.

Objectification, as you demonstrate, has its place (and its hotness). I agree with you on the hypocrisy, and would also say that the intent behind the objectification and what we do with it that becomes problematic. Objectify me all you want, it may be the limit of our engagement, and so what of it? But if it comes from a subjugating or otherwise dangerous place, then I'm going to take issue.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Hudson

Hi Metro,

Thanks for sharing your opinion about the craigslist ad. I'm not here to discuss that ad. And I already explained my intent there, then. I made an observation about the different reaction this ode got. I never said 'all' butches although I can recall quite clearly that *most* butches responded negatively, one or two with outright hostility. I'm also not the only one who noticed and commented. So unless you're speaking to me as a moderator when you're accusing me of 'beelining' here to discuss 'it' again (read: starting trouble), kindly refrain.

Carry on.

Hi Hudson,

Before your first post in this thread, there were only two direct comments on the subject matter of the O.P. Both positive. Then posts were questioning the origin and crediting sources. I noticed a similarity to the OP and a craigs list ad that you posted a link to in another butch thread, then it was on.

If you didn't want to discuss that ad, then why bring it up as a comparison in the first place? How can you not want to discuss it, but still use it as a reference to question butch reaction which is lately described as perceived outrage, male phobia, and gay-panic. WTF?

What is it you want butches to say?

What more can be said? How 'bout we place both 'ode's in a thread and we can all just vote which one we feel is validating? But I think only Butches can vote since both odes were directed ONLY towards them.

I was one that had a hostile reaction to the ad. So what? That hardly makes me phobic of bio male attention. I found most of it objectifying and insulting:

I love butch boobs, because they are such a prize,
alternatively hated and ignored by their owners.

I really didn't know that butches both hated and ignored their boobs? Huh, go figure.

I didn't like the statement in the ad and I still don't like it in this thread's OP, but I get that this is an ode to butches and the flavor of each ode will vary.

So I guess I'm really male phobic and femme phobic.

Fuck, I'm gay-panicking now!!!

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

I find it interesting that some butches are totally *revolted*, dare I say threatened, by a man finding them attractive but on the other hand have absolutely no issue with objectifying a straight female, who would probably be *revolted* by some butch finding them attractive.

ETA: Love me some butch boobs!

When one comes into a butch thread and asks a question regarding bio male attraction to butches and if it validates a butch, then HELLA YES there's going to be reactions.

Just as femmes would be expected to give their opinions on a post by a butch in a thread for straight females, femmes, that to the straight females/femmes, feels/is objectifying or condescending????? I may know something of this, by the way.

Why is this so hard to understand, people?

P.S. MizzSabra, you might want to check out motorboarding

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

When one comes into a butch thread and asks a question regarding bio male attraction to butches and if it validates a butch, then HELLA YES there's going to be reactions.

Just as femmes would be expected to give their opinions on a post by a butch in a thread for straight females, femmes, that to the straight females/femmes, feels/is objectifying or condescending????? I may know something of this, by the way.

Why is this so hard to understand, people?

Hypocritical at best that some people are offended by something done or said to them and then turn around and do the same to someone else.

I'm not validated by anyone but ME. If I relied on others for validation...well, then I'd just be insecure.

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Hi Hudson,

Before your first post in this thread, there were only two direct comments on the subject matter of the O.P. Both positive. Then posts were questioning the origin and crediting sources. I noticed a similarity to the OP and a craigs list ad that you posted a link to in another butch thread, then it was on.

If you didn't want to discuss that ad, then why bring it up as a comparison in the first place? How can you not want to discuss it, but still use it as a reference to question butch reaction which is lately described as perceived outrage, male phobia, and gay-panic. WTF?

What is it you want butches to say?

What more can be said? How 'bout we place both 'ode's in a thread and we can all just vote which one we feel is validating? But I think only Butches can vote since both odes were directed ONLY towards them.

I was one that had a hostile reaction to the ad. So what? That hardly makes me phobic of bio male attention. I found most of it objectifying and insulting:

I love butch boobs, because they are such a prize,
alternatively hated and ignored by their owners.

I really didn't know that butches both hated and ignored their boobs? Huh, go figure.

I didn't like the statement in the ad and I still don't like it in this thread's OP, but I get that this is an ode to butches and the flavor of each ode will vary.

So I guess I'm really male phobic and femme phobic.

Fuck, I'm gay-panicking now!!!

Sorry Kosmo, but the only people I see keeping that convo alive are the butches.

This (not you, Kosmo, but the overall reaction) reminds me of those "(Ewww) I'm not a lesbian and I don't date them because (ewww) I don't have 'lesbian sex' and ugh, I just don't relate to/get that/welcome that" where identities seem to hinge upon stating over and over what one is not (as with homophobia). I never find it necessary to define myself by expressing my repulsion at the attention or attraction of another.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Hudson

Sorry Kosmo, but the only people I see keeping that convo alive are the butches.

This (not you, Kosmo, but the overall reaction) reminds me of those "(Ewww) I'm not a lesbian and I don't date them because (ewww) I don't have 'lesbian sex' and ugh, I just don't relate to/get that/welcome that" where identities seem to hinge upon stating over and over what one is not (as with homophobia). I never find it necessary to define myself by expressing my repulsion at the attention or attraction of another.

lol, and femmes.

Damn, I thought we were going to get back on track with odes and then I saw your reply to Metropolis, but you are correct, it is being continued by butches and femmes.

I'm beginning to think like someone else here, that this thread is a sabotage *shocked*. I need to walk away awhile. My fingers are getting raw,, lol.

I agree with you completely on IDs hinging on the negative or 'what I'm not', but, and please humor me here, if asked whether I like something or not, my reply may include what I don't like and why. If I simply tell you it is because I am butch, is that enough? I could list 100 positive reasons, but 5 negative ones will explain it best.

Hudson, my being a woman or female doesn't automatically place me in a category of those who find attraction by bio males flattering or validating. To presuppose that would initially is insulting .... not by the bio male flattery, but by expecting it. If a bio male were to come up to me and say, 'you know what, sexy? you've got a nice ass'. I'm not going to respond nicely. That's just me. Maybe you would respond nicely and thank him.

Maybe it's the historical expectation of 'being the nice female'. Maybe it's the bio male expectation that they can say just about anything to a woman and it's laughed off or she is expected to make lemonade out of lemons. I don't do it, out there or here. If I do it to someone else, then they can chew my head off for it and I will learn and understand better. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

Hypocritical at best that some people are offended by something done or said to them and then turn around and do the same to someone else.

I'm not validated by anyone but ME. If I relied on others for validation...well, then I'd just be insecure.

And they should be called on it, but I don't see that happening here. Any more than a straight male being hypocritical for not finding the attraction of a gay male validating or flattering and being free to voice it. It's about personal preferences. Why must I feel thankful for something I find objectifying?

It's already been noted that there were positive responses from butches. So, now if we all don't step in that line to give thanks, we are hypocritical? Like I said, if someone says something hypocritical, they should be called on it. If a straight women is displeased with butch flattery, then she needs to call it out. If she feels that the butch is being hypocritical by not also receiving bio male flattery, she can call that out too (I guess). As I would then expect her to call a straight male out on the same thing.

Not directed at you, MizzSabra, but this is turning into a discussion that is going well beyond what I have experienced in my lifetime. I leave it to all the experts on validation, objectification and butch phobias and hypocrisies.

I need a shower. My sweat glands are coming close to knocking myself out.

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

And they should be called on it, but I don't see that happening here. Any more than a straight male being hypocritical for not finding the attraction of a gay male validating or flattering and being free to voice it. It's about personal preferences. Why must I feel thankful for something I find objectifying?

It's already been noted that there were positive responses from butches. So, now if we all don't step in that line to give thanks, we are hypocritical? Like I said, if someone says something hypocritical, they should be called on it. If a straight women is displeased with butch flattery, then she needs to call it out. If she feels that the butch is being hypocritical by not also receiving bio male flattery, she can call that out too (I guess). As I would then expect her to call a straight male out on the same thing.

Not directed at you, MizzSabra, but this is turning into a discussion that is going well beyond what I have experienced in my lifetime. I leave it to all the experts on validation, objectification and butch phobias and hypocrisies.

I need a shower. My sweat glands are coming close to knocking myself out.

What about in those cases someone is talking about someone that's not even in the room/city/state/country? You can only call out what you hear or see.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

What about in those cases someone is talking about someone that's not even in the room/city/state/country? You can only call out what you hear or see.

But they'll have you! .

[Kim]

I couldn't identify with the original author's "ode to butches." While some of the sentiments rang true to me, it was full of stereotypes, and certainly didn't accurately describe any butch that I've ever known. Plus, I don't think it's necessary to insult femmes to get your point across about why you love butches so much. Really, is it hard to see into the soul of a femme because we are wearing "tons" of makeup? A sporty femme can't have big muscles? Don't like our pouty lips and other "signs" of femme (whatever that means)?

I also think it's difficult to do an "ode to butches" because the group is just so big and diverse. Now an "ode to" one particular butch, that would be a different story and I would read with great interest.

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

But they'll have you! .

I am only responsible for my own bad behavior.