Ode to Butches

[apretty]

i sense panic.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by apretty

i sense panic.

I feel annoyed.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I feel annoyed.

by the threat of a male among us? by sexuality that differs from your own?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by apretty

by the threat of a male among us? by sexuality that differs from your own?

No by people telling butch women how we feel and trying to dictate what we talk about.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by BullDog

No by people telling butch women how we feel and trying to dictate what we talk about.

(from signature: "The moment we begin to fear the opinions of others and hesitate to tell the truth that is in us...."

I'm amused.

[Inuus]

I was wondering if this thread is going to get back to what I preceived to be the original topic?

Call me anal but derailing can be annoying

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Bob

I'm amused.

I don't fear your opinion Bob. I am annoyed. Happy you are amused. Have a nice day.

[MizzSabra]

I find it interesting that some butches are totally *revolted*, dare I say threatened, by a man finding them attractive but on the other hand have absolutely no issue with objectifying a straight female, who would probably be *revolted* by some butch finding them attractive.

ETA: Love me some butch boobs!

[BullDog]

I haven't seen any butches objectifying straight females in this thread, and I haven't seen any butches say or express that they are revolted by a man potentially finding them attractive.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Hudson

Hi Metro,

Thanks for sharing your opinion about the craigslist ad. I'm not here to discuss that ad. And I already explained my intent there, then. I made an observation about the different reaction this ode got. I never said 'all' butches although I can recall quite clearly that *most* butches responded negatively, one or two with outright hostility. I'm also not the only one who noticed and commented. So unless you're speaking to me as a moderator when you're accusing me of 'beelining' here to discuss 'it' again (read: starting trouble), kindly refrain.

Carry on.

Hi Hudson,

Before your first post in this thread, there were only two direct comments on the subject matter of the O.P. Both positive. Then posts were questioning the origin and crediting sources. I noticed a similarity to the OP and a craigs list ad that you posted a link to in another butch thread, then it was on.

If you didn't want to discuss that ad, then why bring it up as a comparison in the first place? How can you not want to discuss it, but still use it as a reference to question butch reaction which is lately described as perceived outrage, male phobia, and gay-panic. WTF?

What is it you want butches to say?

What more can be said? How 'bout we place both 'ode's in a thread and we can all just vote which one we feel is validating? But I think only Butches can vote since both odes were directed ONLY towards them.

I was one that had a hostile reaction to the ad. So what? That hardly makes me phobic of bio male attention. I found most of it objectifying and insulting:

I love butch boobs, because they are such a prize,
alternatively hated and ignored by their owners.

I really didn't know that butches both hated and ignored their boobs? Huh, go figure.

I didn't like the statement in the ad and I still don't like it in this thread's OP, but I get that this is an ode to butches and the flavor of each ode will vary.

So I guess I'm really male phobic and femme phobic.

Fuck, I'm gay-panicking now!!!

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

I find it interesting that some butches are totally *revolted*, dare I say threatened, by a man finding them attractive but on the other hand have absolutely no issue with objectifying a straight female, who would probably be *revolted* by some butch finding them attractive.

ETA: Love me some butch boobs!

When one comes into a butch thread and asks a question regarding bio male attraction to butches and if it validates a butch, then HELLA YES there's going to be reactions.

Just as femmes would be expected to give their opinions on a post by a butch in a thread for straight females, femmes, that to the straight females/femmes, feels/is objectifying or condescending????? I may know something of this, by the way.

Why is this so hard to understand, people?

P.S. MizzSabra, you might want to check out motorboarding

[WILDCAT]

I'm wondering if and how antagonistic CRAP serves any good purposes here.

I'm thinking some folks are mean spirited in this walk of life.

Bully, unbelievable, eh?

I wish folks would be a bit more respectful here. Seriously. Don't we get enough crap out in the "real" world? And the defensiveness is really not warranted, but... folks do show their "hand of sorts" by remaining or continuing on such a path.

NOT CLEAR here? Well, just take what you can use - and leave the rest then. I'm not Judge Judy...

Folks are seemingly NOT writing very kindly here. We generally know where our own hearts are, yes?
__

I think I'm in a loving space myself, but not feeling too much of it here. So, I'm going to run my errands now. SMILE

And I'm not in any defending myself space, for certain. (And I don't think it's nice really of anyone to write or infer such things. Unless you want to quote maybe specific (?)

I'm certainly not feeling "panicked"... (?)
__

There is a difference from being hurt, annoyed, defensive, defendING, rude, disrespectful, instigative and truly genuine/concerned/civil/productive... CONstructive, etc. And on and on.

Plug it in where it fits... if you wish. I have, for myself and I'm quite clear with myself where I am at right now. (Realizing everyone's perceptions and realities are their own of course.)

Have to good day all respectful, kind and considerate folks. Anyone confused, good luck! (Little hug here from me!!)

WC


*I'm starting to think I'm on the wrong site here. Anyone else? Have the aliens landed?

ETA: Oh, much has been written since I began this. Hope it still fits in with the theme in any helpful or interesting way... Have a good day now, ya'll! Really.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I feel annoyed.

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.

What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.

What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

I've only seen so obvious an elitism expressed around our (denied) "hierarchies" whenever femmes pat-pat and welcome transwomen into their spaces with that little discomfort they try to hide behind their eyes and under their voices.

I'm sure someone was just "taking up too much space."

[SuperFemme]

Isn't an "Ode to <insert subject matter" a very personal diatribe from one person about something? From a very personal viewpoint. Trying to apply this to a group as a blanket is kind of silly. Take Beethovens Ode to Joy. Love that piece but MY Ode to Joy would look/sound much different. My Ode to Femme would be way way different than a butchs (of any flavor). Perhaps we not need bulldoze over others Odes to make them fit the general us?

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Isn't an "Ode to <insert subject matter" a very personal diatribe from one person about something? From a very personal viewpoint. Trying to apply this to a group as a blanket is kind of silly. Take Beethovens Ode to Joy. Love that piece but MY Ode to Joy would look/sound much different. My Ode to Femme would be way way different than a butchs (of any flavor). Perhaps we not need bulldoze over others Odes to make them fit the general us?

I know Wikipedia isn't always correct but in order to cite my source about the word Ode:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode

noted that it says an Ode is dedicated to someone or something....

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

Right, see my first point. And thanks for giving me the ok to post here, I wasn't aware your approval was necessary, though you certainly spend a lot of time moderating the direction of the conversation.

I think my third point (damn, should have used bullets) makes it clear what I think of the OP when I called it "clichéd." I agree with Kim, "it was full of stereotypes, and certainly didn't accurately describe any butch that I've ever known."

What I do find interesting is the avenue of dialog (albeit one some people have attempted to divert) with regard to butches and male attraction. Hell yeah - I find that shit fascinating!

I am intrigued by male attraction to butches, gay men, sure, but what I find most compelling is heterosexual male sexual attraction to butch. On at least one level, it interests me for the ways in which it validates the argument for sexuality existing on a continuum. We're talking about a "straight" man sexually attracted to another masculine presence. Not gay, but gay? I want to dissect that, put it under a microscope and take pictures. Sure, that's not what the OP was talking about, but the dialog has attempted to take us there, and I for one don't understand all the defensiveness surrounding it.

Heterosexual men have hit on me in the past, and it doesn't make me question my own masculinity or sexuality - I never feel threatened in that way - but it sure as shootin' makes me question theirs. I don't judge them, but I'm decidedly curious and have yet to find a man with whom I could have that conversation.

Originally Posted by evolveme

I'm sure someone was just "taking up too much space."

So just elbow them out!

[BullDog]

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.

I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads.

Oh and I never said who could or couldn't post here, so don't throw that crap at me. It's not sticking.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.

I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads.

Oh and I never said who could or couldn't post here, so don't through that crap at me. It's not sticking.

This denial and dismissiveness from you has become as predictable as villagers with pitchforks.

Maybe you haven't noticed that I'm not the only person to call you out on your behavior.

"I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads."

I clearly object to you speaking for "other butches," as I am one. Maybe if you spoke from your "I" place and called it quits there.