Butch/Butch Theory

[Darth Denkay]

Interesting thought.

I can only theorize what would happen if I was stranded with another butch with no hope of ever being rescued or whatever. Assuming we got along and all, I would think that I would grow to love the other butch. Would I fall in love with them - well, I guess I'm not really sure what the difference would be between loving the butch and being in love with the butch. Splitting hairs - maybe. I imagine that we aould be involved in a sexual relationship. We both have needs and in extreme situations we sometimes do what normally would not be our preference. Happens all the time in situations where a bunch of men or women are forced together - in jails for instance.

So yeah, I would probably - hopefully - love the butch. Yeah, we would probably have sex. But again, this is an extreme situation. If the same butch and I were friends in the real world, would those same feelings and behaviors occur. For me, I would think not.

Originally Posted by RNguy

I think this is an interesting topic, so thank you for bringing it up.
I really think love is love, and I have always been curious on this one thought:
This is my own opinion. I wondered if 2 people were stranded on an island with no contact or communication with anyone other than the one they are stuck with and who haveno chance of being rescued then I wondered if those 2 people would fall in love .
I think that in that type of situation where 2 people never thought that the other persons identity was ever attractive all of a sudden find them to be the most attractive person they ever saw.
I have never thought that boi's were attractive at all. I have never been in any kind of relationship with another boi , butch, or andro even bc I'm just not that boi. I believe that love is love and who ever you find attractive and love is amazing ! I would think that the intimacy with 2 butches would be very very intence.
I wondered if since I do not think butches are attractive and would not be with one, if maybe I were to be stuck in a stranded place with no hopes of rescue if I would fall in love with another boi???? I think I would.
I think love is a beautiful thing no matter who one shares it with.
I have had several butches that only desire butches tell me that I am nice looking and etc... I'm flattered by that , just as I am flattered if a femme, or whoever would say it.

-RNguy

[imperfect_cupcake]

hmn, hard to explain.

for a long time my only exposure to dykedom was through amutual friend who was very much part of the seattle butch/butch leather scene, a long time ago. For the longest time is really affected how I percieved being a dyke. I couldn't be one. I wasn't a butch, nor was I that kind of leather. And as far as I knew, at that point, that's was dykes were.

plus when I was in their company, they did nothing but say dismissive and hideous things about femmes. Some of them occationally dated femmes but their attitude was "bit of fluff on the side."

So I grew from 18 - 25, thinking that the only way to be taken seriously was to be masculine and that butch-butch were so into masculinity, and hated femininity so much (probably due to the phase they had to go through of rejection for themselves), that femmes were pretty much loathed.

So I pretty much thought that butch/butch would hate me for my femininity, without even knowing me. But, there is a similarity in butch/butch as there is in gay male men/men communities. Many of them do hate women and want nothing to do with females. Thankfully, a lot of them don't. And the same with butch/butch.

So when I'm introduced to a butch/butch couple when I'm out, the first thing that skidds across my brain is "how quickly are they going to ignore me/dismiss me because I don't matter."

sometimes I'm proved wrong and that makes me happy. I can have good conversation with good people. And I've made some great, fun friendships. But sometimes, unfortunately, I'm right. And instead of friendship I get the bland dismissal look of "oh. femme. *blank*" Usually because they themselves make assumptions about me and about femininity.

I've been privy to conversation about things like "oh do we have to bring a femme along? she's just going to whine, complain about her feet hurting and demand attention..." when one of them says that they are bringing X to an after-party or whatever. Either forgetting I'm there or just being an asshole.

that said, one of the politest, loveliest butches was one that was with another butch and sincerely helped me when everyone else flaked out.

I'm just scared of wierd misogyny. I'm a bit wary about gay men in the same way when I meet them because of the same issue.

[Lynn]

Having worked so hard and waited so long to pursue the type of individual I would truly desire, I can't begin to judge anyone else for their preferences. I'm a pretty accepting, open person, anyway. I could probably fall in love with you (any of you) if you reveal yourself to me. I am deeply touched by authenticity, in all its forms. But, I've learned that love isn't always love, at least for me. I definitely have sexual preferences and proclivities. If you're a woman, that's great. If you have masculine qualities, that's perfect. I'm absolutely certain that my kind of desire grosses other people out. So, butch on butch doesn't perplex me, nor does femme on femme. Or just about anything else that's legal. We've come too far to require one another to justify who we are and how we're wired.

[labete]

I agree with the internalized homophobia angle that e presented. I think it applies to both butch/butch and femme/femme coupling, but it seems the femme/femme dynamic can more often be seen as arousing in the same way that hetero men often think of two women together, as if they are hot and sexy but incomplete in a way that makes it easy to fantasize sliding in there as a man or a butch and completing the image.

Butch/butch, however, is more often seen as complete, just as gay male couples are, and not inviting that idea of a masculine person to complete the image (not that no one ever fantasizes about being a third with two men or two butches, but that it's not as common to hear about or see, and I think more often the locus of interaction is projected to be the third party rather than the first two).

It's yet another manifestation of misogyny, I think, just as I think all homophobia is when cut to its core.

[Dylan]

If sex and gender are not the same (as we all pretty much agree on after numerous break-downs of it all)

Then, seems to me, butch on butch wouldn't necessarily be a matter of homosexuality but rather homogenderality

I'm sexually attracted to males and females and folks who don't ID as either...but there are some genders I have no interest in dating


Could Be A Matlock Theory Too Though,
Dylan

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Dylan

If sex and gender are not the same (as we all pretty much agree on after numerous break-downs of it all)

Then, seems to me, butch on butch wouldn't necessarily be a matter of homosexuality but rather homogenderality

I'm sexually attracted to males and females and folks who don't ID as either...but there are some genders I have no interest in dating


Could Be A Matlock Theory Too Though,
Dylan

hmn. dunno. I have a friend here for the past 7 years, she's a butch woman, drag king, ID's as a butch woman and dates a transqueer boy - he self ID's as an xxboy. They are different genders. but they still consider themselves a butch/butch couple (in the loosest of terms). They go to HardOn, sex club for gay men that include other queers and the times I've gone, it's been mostly maculine/masculine in terms of dyke/trans/genderqueer/men/cismen in there. So not the *same/homo* genders...

I was thinking about it further today. most of the couples who are masculine/masculine in my circle of friends aren't strictly butch/butch. It's trans/trans, butch/trans, trans/cisman, butch/cisman, butch/genderqueer. I don't think I know a butch/butch couple... I don't think I've met one since toronto (where I was also hugely ignored/dismissed for being feminine).

[eye ball roll self realisation] I obviously have a chip about this.[/eye ball roll self realisation]

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

hmn. dunno. I have a friend here for the past 7 years, she's a butch woman, drag king, ID's as a butch woman and dates a transqueer boy - he self ID's as an xxboy. They are different genders. but they still consider themselves a butch/butch couple (in the loosest of terms). They go to HardOn, sex club for gay men that include other queers and the times I've gone, it's been mostly maculine/masculine in terms of dyke/trans/genderqueer/men/cismen in there. So not the *same/homo* genders...

I was thinking about it further today. most of the couples who are masculine/masculine in my circle of friends aren't strictly butch/butch. It's trans/trans, butch/trans, trans/cisman, butch/cisman, butch/genderqueer. I don't think I know a butch/butch couple... I don't think I've met one since toronto (where I was also hugely ignored/dismissed for being feminine).

[eye ball roll self realisation] I obviously have a chip about this.[/eye ball roll self realisation]

right

So, even though there may be crosses of sex...genders are somewhat similar (if we're using gender loosely...say like masculine/masculine, feminine/feminine...just to make very ez examples. Obviously gender could be broken down more, but I'm trying to keep this hella ez).

So, you may have two same sex people (say, two female ID'd people), whose gender (butch on butch) match. They are homosexed, and also homogendered. But you may also have two differently sexed folks (male/female...again to keep it simple), whose genders are aligned (effeminate male with a non-masculine female). Heterosexed but homogendered. A transman and a female ID'd butch...could be heterosexed, but homogendered also (or heterosexed and heterogendered if the transman were feminine). (again, using gender very loosely as feminine and masculine just to keep things simple).

Either of these couples (as labete states) is going to make some people somewhat uncomfortable. While this discomfort could be lumped into some sort of 'homophobia', with the het couple, it's not a matter of homophobia (since they're straight). It's the effeminate gender of the male that makes folks uncomfortable. The same could be said for het butches.

I am probably not explaining myself well, but I can't post long right now...I'm at work, but wanted to see what folks had to say.


Dylan

[labete]

Originally Posted by Dylan

If sex and gender are not the same (as we all pretty much agree on after numerous break-downs of it all)

Then, seems to me, butch on butch wouldn't necessarily be a matter of homosexuality but rather homogenderality

I'm sexually attracted to males and females and folks who don't ID as either...but there are some genders I have no interest in dating


Could Be A Matlock Theory Too Though,
Dylan

I don't think homophobia is restricted to a traditional understanding of homosexuality. I think sometimes people are suspicious of or uncomfortable around hetero couples when the man is particularly feminine or the woman is particularly masculine or both. It's not just about sex, not just about gender identity, not just about presentation, and it does seem to be largely situational.

Take a femme/femme couple. Some groups or communities would tend toward viewing this as arousing; others would tend toward squicky. Balance is reached when it's not noticed as anything out of the ordinary, instead of either fetishized or rejected as being different.