Butch/Butch Theory

[Dylan]

If sex and gender are not the same (as we all pretty much agree on after numerous break-downs of it all)

Then, seems to me, butch on butch wouldn't necessarily be a matter of homosexuality but rather homogenderality

I'm sexually attracted to males and females and folks who don't ID as either...but there are some genders I have no interest in dating


Could Be A Matlock Theory Too Though,
Dylan

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Dylan

If sex and gender are not the same (as we all pretty much agree on after numerous break-downs of it all)

Then, seems to me, butch on butch wouldn't necessarily be a matter of homosexuality but rather homogenderality

I'm sexually attracted to males and females and folks who don't ID as either...but there are some genders I have no interest in dating


Could Be A Matlock Theory Too Though,
Dylan

hmn. dunno. I have a friend here for the past 7 years, she's a butch woman, drag king, ID's as a butch woman and dates a transqueer boy - he self ID's as an xxboy. They are different genders. but they still consider themselves a butch/butch couple (in the loosest of terms). They go to HardOn, sex club for gay men that include other queers and the times I've gone, it's been mostly maculine/masculine in terms of dyke/trans/genderqueer/men/cismen in there. So not the *same/homo* genders...

I was thinking about it further today. most of the couples who are masculine/masculine in my circle of friends aren't strictly butch/butch. It's trans/trans, butch/trans, trans/cisman, butch/cisman, butch/genderqueer. I don't think I know a butch/butch couple... I don't think I've met one since toronto (where I was also hugely ignored/dismissed for being feminine).

[eye ball roll self realisation] I obviously have a chip about this.[/eye ball roll self realisation]

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

hmn. dunno. I have a friend here for the past 7 years, she's a butch woman, drag king, ID's as a butch woman and dates a transqueer boy - he self ID's as an xxboy. They are different genders. but they still consider themselves a butch/butch couple (in the loosest of terms). They go to HardOn, sex club for gay men that include other queers and the times I've gone, it's been mostly maculine/masculine in terms of dyke/trans/genderqueer/men/cismen in there. So not the *same/homo* genders...

I was thinking about it further today. most of the couples who are masculine/masculine in my circle of friends aren't strictly butch/butch. It's trans/trans, butch/trans, trans/cisman, butch/cisman, butch/genderqueer. I don't think I know a butch/butch couple... I don't think I've met one since toronto (where I was also hugely ignored/dismissed for being feminine).

[eye ball roll self realisation] I obviously have a chip about this.[/eye ball roll self realisation]

right

So, even though there may be crosses of sex...genders are somewhat similar (if we're using gender loosely...say like masculine/masculine, feminine/feminine...just to make very ez examples. Obviously gender could be broken down more, but I'm trying to keep this hella ez).

So, you may have two same sex people (say, two female ID'd people), whose gender (butch on butch) match. They are homosexed, and also homogendered. But you may also have two differently sexed folks (male/female...again to keep it simple), whose genders are aligned (effeminate male with a non-masculine female). Heterosexed but homogendered. A transman and a female ID'd butch...could be heterosexed, but homogendered also (or heterosexed and heterogendered if the transman were feminine). (again, using gender very loosely as feminine and masculine just to keep things simple).

Either of these couples (as labete states) is going to make some people somewhat uncomfortable. While this discomfort could be lumped into some sort of 'homophobia', with the het couple, it's not a matter of homophobia (since they're straight). It's the effeminate gender of the male that makes folks uncomfortable. The same could be said for het butches.

I am probably not explaining myself well, but I can't post long right now...I'm at work, but wanted to see what folks had to say.


Dylan

[Bit]

When I see a Femme/Femme couple, I don't get uncomfortable, I just think "Lesbian." They would have to specifically tell me they didn't id as Lesbian before I would know that about them.

The same with a Butch/Butch couple--again I just think "Lesbian" and they would have to tell me that they don't id that way.

Seeing ANYONE I can identify as "Family" always makes me happy. I relax some inside when I'm around people who are identifiable in some way as Queer; I feel more secure when I don't feel like I'm completely isolated, the only Queer in the crowd.

[imperfect_cupcake]

So, you may have two same sex people (say, two female ID'd people), whose gender (butch on butch) match. They are homosexed, and also homogendered. But you may also have two differently sexed folks (male/female...again to keep it simple), whose genders are aligned (effeminate male with a non-masculine female). Heterosexed but homogendered. A transman and a female ID'd butch...could be heterosexed, but homogendered also (or heterosexed and heterogendered if the transman were feminine). (again, using gender very loosely as feminine and masculine just to keep things simple).

Ohhhhhhhhh. yeah yeah, totally get you. Yes that has marched across by brain before in a half-arsed way, getting lost and distracted in any other side thoughts passing along parallel.

totally. I hadn't thought about it in terms of "why people get uncomfortable" just "why I still consider that "het couple" not het at all and actually completely queer. I think the first one a met was my partner's (at the time) ex who was butch lesbian, falling in love with an effeminant bisexual male who wooed her for yonks. it may have been hetero/hetero even in both terms but it was still queer-ass.

that isn't even an example you were using, but it sure as fuck made people VERY uncomfortable, from every single group... Cept the bi friends they had...

But yes I see what you are saying, completely. Also another friend, who transitioned, who used to butch-femme, found he was more attracted to transmen after a few years. we had a good chat. He said that "I dunno, I think my sexuality is just very homo. after transitioning, it just felt too hetero for some reason I can't put my finger on..."

so, maybe for some people the homosex/homosexuality/homogender is all part of it?

[Lillie]

My 4 cents.

I believe the heart what the heart wants..Desire is a power so often out of our control..It comes and goes in all aspects of life..in high school I loved looking at feminine woman..yet my girlfriend was a tomboy lol..I appreciate a beautiful woman any size shape and color..I tend to desire the butch more becuase of the security I find in that dynamic..but like say if Kate Beckensale was available and looked in my direction..i'd take it! lol..and enjoy it lol..ooooooooo would I ever haha..ahem..off topic ok where was I? lol..oh ya..My desire for all things in life are different and eclectic..But being gay and living with the stigma that at times comes with that, made me realize that althougth I do not understand something in my community does not mean it is wrong or shouldnt happen. Do what makes you happy..you only get one go in this world..fuck it up! and in a good way

just a side note..I have a 16 yr old daughter who tells me her friends think im the coolest because Im a lesbian..rewind this when I was 16 and I was NOT the coolest because I was..wow how far we have come lol..

Enjoying my coffee and loving my life
Lilli

[Andrew, Jr.]

Love is love. Live your life as what you want and desire. Life is so short.

[KayCee]

Whatever will come, will come
Whatever will happen, will happen
Whatever will be, will be

Que Sera, Sera!

[Martina]

Well, i fetishize butch on butch. It's just hot.

i once got seriously chastised because i couldn't stop looking at this hot hot hot threesome of young butches at a play party. It was worth it. OMG.

i have got some shit from femmes for dating a femme. i mean some serious shaming stuff. i wish they just thought, oh, there goes a lesbian. Really homophobic reactions. "Ewwwwww" i got several times. This is LIVE. No computer to hide behind. i got that online -- in chat -- though too. i have heard things like, "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII don't do Ma'ams." i don't know what to say to that except, good, that leaves more for me.

[Brewcityboi]

butch on butch is such a fascinating concept.

To me its such a celebration of equals. Its also really sexy. Here in milwaukee, butches dating butches is a strict no-no. They feel that in order to really be a true lesbian it has to be butch/femme or femme/femme. Its nothing but bs and discrimination. I've noticed that people will always be uncomfortable with anything they dont even slightly understand.

I am nothing but a gender fuck. My identity lies all over the grey area of the kinsey scale in terms of gender and orientation. I love all women and trans bois. Its amazing the about of bull i get for being a butch that loves other butches and trans guys. For me its all about gender play and the fact that its taboo here makes it so much sexier. Its like being 2 gay men but far from it. Its impossible to find another butch that enjoys being with other butches. ironically now, the girl im with is the farthest thing from being butch. ultra femme and not my type. maybe thats why it works so well.

[ChainerBoi]

Ok, for those of y'all who don't read, here is the quote in its original context, (NOTE that I stated CLEARLY, "As someone said in a previous post" - that meant I was QUOTING somebody):

Originally Posted by Brewcityboi

butch on butch is such a fascinating concept.

To me its such a celebration of equals. Its also really sexy. Here in milwaukee, butches dating butches.....

That statement was made last January, & seems Brewcityboi didn't get as much flak for it then as I did when I repeated HIS statement.

I don't speak for anyone but myself. For me, there is a different level of connection in a butch on butch relationship. I apologize that I don't have a better way of describing it than "spiritual" or "equivalent," but hey, I'm not a walking dictionary. And just because I feel that way about myself and my relationships does NOT mean I'm judging you and yours. If your relationships didn't do something for you on a level of spirituality and equality, then I'm sure none of you would be IN them, regardless of what manner of relationships they may be.

Again, I speak for myself alone, and I stand by what I said.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by ChainerBoi

Butch/butch relationships have a whole different level of... I dunno... something going on. I think, for me, it's more cerebral, more... spiritual? A more intense type of sexuality - and less predictable.

Originally Posted by ChainerBoi

Or, as someone in a previous post said, "A celebration of equals."

Thanks.

Originally Posted by ChainerBoi

Ok, for those of y'all who don't read, here is the quote in its original context, (NOTE that I stated CLEARLY, "As someone said in a previous post" - that meant I was QUOTING somebody):

That statement was made last January, & seems Brewcityboi didn't get as much flak for it then as I did when I repeated HIS statement.

I don't speak for anyone but myself. For me, there is a different level of connection in a butch on butch relationship. I apologize that I don't have a better way of describing it than "spiritual" or "equivalent," but hey, I'm not a walking dictionary. And just because I feel that way about myself and my relationships does NOT mean I'm judging you and yours. If your relationships didn't do something for you on a level of spirituality and equality, then I'm sure none of you would be IN them, regardless of what manner of relationships they may be.

Again, I speak for myself alone, and I stand by what I said.

The first sentence I bolded implies that f/f, b/f are less than. You flat out say that sex other than b/b is less than.

I bolded the word 'more' up there in your posts. It's the 'more' that creates problems for some of us. By saying 'more' it implies f/f or b/f is somehow 'less than' b/b.

The 'celebration of equals' also implies that femme is less than equal to butch.

You can talk about how your sexual proclivities work for you without putting down other folks through the use of un-neccessary adjectives.

Language is powerful. We must all take the time to think about what we write. We must actually understand what 'I' statements really look like. Saying "I think sex with butches is a whole different level and is more intense' is not an I statement. 'I find sex with another butch to be incredible' is an I statement. Or 'for me sex with another butch is incredible, intense, spiritual and cerebral'.

[MarineCorps1]

You're right, Toughy, language IS powerful.

So is what one CHOOSES to hear.

You make a great point in how ChainerBoi could have worded his statement by telling him that he could have said "For me, ...etc.", but you completely overlook the fact that, in his original post, he said EXACTLY that. He said the exact words "for ME" (emphasis added).

I've read a lot of posts on here in different forums that got my blood to boilin', or that I was ready to respond a certain way to, until I took a second to re-read what the person said, and fully understand it.

I think most of us would agree that what ChainerBoi said could have been said better and in a more tactful way, but I think we can all ALSO agree that he probably didn't mean it the way some folks took it.

Maybe we ALL just need to ease up a bit...?

At any rate, thanks to ALL for their comments.

[LediskoLove99]

My thoughts have always been, we have so many limitations put on us by society as a whole, why put them on ourselves?

I personally love all relationships. Butch/butch femme/femme butch/femme ect.. (I think you get the point) relationships. I find that nothing is more adorable than seeing two butch women walking hand in hand. I love butches and find them sexy, so why wouldn't I love that dynamic?

Like I said I love all relationships and all people. I LOVE EVERYONE! Ok well some I love on a strictly platonic basis, like men. But I still love everyone.

Ok shutting up now.

[Quintease]

I live in a city, where lots of b/b, b/f, f/f, f/t, g/t, g/b and so on all date each other and hang out in different scenes. In fact I feel I'm doing a bit of a disservice as a lot of people I know have no interest in actually wearing a label, else they wear a rather 'shallow' label (as in, I have short hair therefore I call myself butch).

I think it's great! For myself I have dated a fantastic variety of women, so I was mortally offended once to join a b/f site only to read endless 'jokes' about how disgusting b/b was and how horny f/f was *vom*

[iamkeri1]

The B-F Community is exciting to me because it is the only place I have found affirmation for myself as a femme. I spent many years in politically active and politically correct Ann Arbor MI. Now that was a hard place to be a femme. I was actually degraded for wearing dresses - or makeup (dresses are soooo much cooler in a hot Michigan summer.) The norm was "andro" which translated at least in appearance to everyone looking (to me, the femme) butch. So most relationships at least in physical appearance were butch with butch.

Historically I have mostly been in relationships where the person I was with transitioned FTM. This reeked havoc with my lesbian identity, but conversely carries much privilege with it. What I made peace with over time, is that my ftm partner must have come out of the gay community and hopefully still identify somewhere along the queer continuum.

I find love hot.

If you as butch love another butch person, that is hot.
Femme loving Femme is hot.
Femme loving butch is hot
Femme lovng FTM is hot
Femme loving MTF is hot.

Finding someone to love who loves you back in this hard old world is hot
Smooches,
Keri

[ChainerBoi]

Butch/butch relationships have a whole different level of... I dunno... something going on. I think, for me, it's more cerebral, more... spiritual? A more intense type of sexuality - and less predictable.

[ChainerBoi]

Or, as someone in a previous post said, "A celebration of equals."

Thanks.

[Rope]

Originally Posted by ChainerBoi

Butch/butch relationships have a whole different level of... I dunno... something going on. I think, for me, it's more cerebral, more... spiritual? A more intense type of sexuality - and less predictable.

Just because you say 'Ithink, for me' does not remove the judgment language of 'it's more cerebral and more spiritual'. Back pedalling doesn't erase what you typed.

Rope--

[labete]

Originally Posted by Dylan

If sex and gender are not the same (as we all pretty much agree on after numerous break-downs of it all)

Then, seems to me, butch on butch wouldn't necessarily be a matter of homosexuality but rather homogenderality

I'm sexually attracted to males and females and folks who don't ID as either...but there are some genders I have no interest in dating


Could Be A Matlock Theory Too Though,
Dylan

I don't think homophobia is restricted to a traditional understanding of homosexuality. I think sometimes people are suspicious of or uncomfortable around hetero couples when the man is particularly feminine or the woman is particularly masculine or both. It's not just about sex, not just about gender identity, not just about presentation, and it does seem to be largely situational.

Take a femme/femme couple. Some groups or communities would tend toward viewing this as arousing; others would tend toward squicky. Balance is reached when it's not noticed as anything out of the ordinary, instead of either fetishized or rejected as being different.