For the T-Femmes and SOFFAs...

[Mister Bent]

I don't want to (and can't) speak for a pretty, but my read of her post was that "T-femme" suggests an identity based solely upon attraction/partnering. I respect where you're coming from, Bit, but doesn't that feel minimizing of femme to you?

Which is to ask, how does T-femme stand alone as an identity?

If there were no such thing as a transman, what would be the identity of a T-femme?

"apretty, is YOUR identity fetish/objectification/dehumanizing of your partner? Does YOUR identity depend one whit upon that of your partner?"

A femme's/woman's identity is exclusive of that of her partner.

Within these parameters, I don't think the same question could be asked of a transman/genderqueer/third gender butch because that is his identity. He's not identifying based on his lover's identity.

I'm not trying to take issue with your position, just wanted to point out how I read the question. For sure it's provocative.

[Bit]

*quote snipped for brevity and clarity*

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

.... "tfemme" suggests an identity based solely upon attraction/partnering.
Which is to ask, how does tfemme stand alone as an identity?
If there were no such thing as a transman, what would be the identity of a tfemme?

I dunno, darlin, what IS Julie's identity? How does it depend--or NOT depend--on yours? How did it come to be solely defined by her sexuality?

You can take the heat on that one, I don't wanna be ANYWHERE near when she reads that.

I wonder. Did you completely miss the litany of Butches I referenced? How can anyone read my entire post and think that I would disappear if there were no Transmen? I lived 41 years before I even knew that Transmen existed, and I never once understood the range of my sexuality until I actually spent time talking with Transmen--------JUST AS I never understood the range of my sexuality until I spent time talking with Butches. I existed before I knew about them, I would exist if they were all gone.... only yanno, they WOULDN'T be gone. They would still be Stone Butches, Third Gender Butches, GenderQueer Butches, Hard Butches, Transgendered Butches, Two Spirit Butches--need I go on?

I understand that you're not trying to be dismissive and I also understand that it's late and I am certainly feeling snippy, but goddammit it's been seven and a half years now that I have been hearing how being Transensual trumps every other part of my identity, that my sexuality is somehow enormous enough that it completely negates my very being who lives and moves and breathes in this world as a Femme who is the natural partner of Butches. My ability to partner with Transmen is a gift that I cherish. It does not limit me, it frees me. It does not dehumanize me, it allows me to be the full person I was always meant to be. I am lucky enough to have grown into an identity that includes an expanded sexuality.

[apretty]

i am confused because i believe that ANY person 'can love a trans-person' and i am dismayed that some think that it takes a special 'breed of femme' when in reality, most people i know fall in love with both the *inside and outside* of the person.

my hope is that we'd please, stop 'othering' the trans-people by making them and/or the ability to love these people such a "rare and unique" (unicorn) thing to behold.

flip-side --i don't get the whole identifying yourself dependent on who you're doing-thing. i've never changed my identity to date/love/plan a future with anyone, and i value that that's as a huge source of strength--that inflexibility while changing/moving/evolving all the time.

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by apretty

i am confused because i believe that ANY person 'can love a trans-person' and i am dismayed that some think that it takes a special 'breed of femme' when in reality, most people i know fall in love with both the *inside and outside* of the person.

my hope is that we'd please, stop 'othering' the trans-people by making them and/or the ability to love these people such a "rare and unique" (unicorn) thing to behold.

flip-side --i don't get the whole identifying yourself dependent on who you're doing-thing. i've never changed my identity to date/love/plan a future with anyone, and i value that that's as a huge source of strength--that inflexibility while changing/moving/evolving all the time.

Hands down, one of THE best trans ally posts EVER. Everrr. Love you for this, C.

[Princess4u]

Originally Posted by Hudson

Hands down, one of THE best trans ally posts EVER. Everrr. Love you for this, C.

I feel like I have been locked away in this obscure little world of loving only butches but secretly desiring both butches and transmen. I am not only learning that there are all of these labels for all of us and we get so caught up in them, but that there is a community of femmes and transmen willing to express themselves so openly. Hence why I want to thank you all for posting on this thread.

Many years ago I dated someone who was pre-transgender and it never crossed my mind what that met to him. Until many years later we met up again and his transition was complete and he offered to re-transition back to butch as to be with me. Then is when it hit me or so I thought...omg femmes are gay and we are only supposed to be with butch women. For years after that I couldnt understand and I felt wrong for being attracted to both transmen and butch. I thought am I straight, am I gay and why does it matter? I feel very honoured to have many transmale friends and I dont feel like they are butch but men. Am I wrong in saying I am lesbian if I also am attracted to transmen? How does this make them feel because they are straight?

And just as a side note, that person I dated...the reason we didnt work out wasnt to do with his transitioning. To me that was normal, it just made sense to me why he would want to transition. There were other reasons involved which sadly to say were drugs. To be honest, I miss him (the non drug user part). He treated me better than anyone in my entire life. And for him to feel like he needed to transition back to female broke my heart. Because I already cared so deeply for him. But I just cant tolerate someone being altered all the time on substances.

I hope I havent been disrespectful to anyone. I feel like I have kept these questions inside for so long I feel wrong for even writing them down. I just want to understand and to feel ok with me. I suppose ironically its almost like someone feeling they are gay/lesbian and trying to live the staight life when you desire something else. How ironic.

Thank you for your time and interest. And thank you for starting this thread.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Bit

[I][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][COLOR=Teal]

I dunno, darlin, what IS Julie's identity? How does it depend--or NOT depend--on yours? How did it come to be solely defined by her sexuality?

Except on a purely imaginary, play-pretend, lets-get-theoretical level, Bent can't answer these questions. I can sort of see why you asked him, but since I believe the effort was misplayed (not that I am hurt - I'm not) I'm going to answer.

My identity is in no way contingent upon the individual that I partner with, or any person with whom I might choose to enter sexual relations. My identity has never been and will never be "solely" defined by my sexuality.

I have revealed before that I see my sexual orientation as fitting a pansexual screen, which for me, and because of the way that it is fashioned, is also a queer one. Because of how I love, which is different than purely sexual desire (obviously), I am best to venture into relationship with a certain subset of masculine females and/or trans males.

Absolutely none of that defines me. It is only a marker, an indicator, as to my desires.

Should I say that my identity is heteronormative? Is that really what we're avoiding saying? Because it could be understood as an identity marker. And the only place I see a lack of parity here is where transmen, genderqueers, third gendered butches and stone butches aren't saying the same thing in relationship to their own identities. I mean, as long as they aren't saying: I am Femmesensual (and let's face it; they're not - except Hey AZ!), and so few are saying "I id as straight," then it really isn't about identity for them in terms of us.

And if they are identifying as straight, we aren't meeting them in like numbers. (Pure bullshit conjecture here.)

And is this heteronormative behavior? And is that really so bad? This has always been about the power of personal choice, hasn't it? Was there really ever such a thing?

I can't decide.

Someone will tell me my post is a derail.

[SuperFemme]

I think this calls for a Rock Opera. I am convinced that the THAT in "I won't do that" means change my identity because of who I love.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GNhdQRbXhc"]YouTube- Meat Loaf - I would do anything for love[/ame]

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Bit

*quote snipped for levity and clarity*

You can take the heat on that one, I don't wanna be ANYWHERE near when she reads that.

Hell, Bit, she laughed!

Originally Posted by Bit

<snip> Did you completely miss the litany of Butches I referenced? How can anyone read my entire post and think that I would disappear if there were no Transmen?

I just want to assure you that, no I didn't miss that, I was simply using "transman" as shorthand, you'll see later in my post I listed a greater compliment of gender variable masculine types.

Originally Posted by Bit

I dunno, darlin, what IS Julie's identity? How does it depend--or NOT depend--on yours? How did it come to be solely defined by her sexuality?

Had e not answered already, my response to you would have been that my partner is a lesbian (whereas I am not) and that the question is hers, not mine, to answer (as she did).