For the T-Femmes and SOFFAs...

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by apretty

for those of you that identify as 't-femmes'--what was that process from xyz/femme/human to t-femme (assuming you weren't born t-femme)?

and do you/your partners ever feel that your 'trans'-based identity is fetish/objectification/dehumanizing?

I don't like straight girls, as far as dating, sex and relationships go. I dig femmes. Am I fetishizing/objectifying/dehumanizing femmes by only preferring them in this regard?

Just a question.

Mr. FemmeSensual

[Bit]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

To a lot of people this suddenly labeled me as a transsensual femme. I don't know if this fits me. But I was worried about saying that because then it might offend somebody.

Nobody has the right to label you, Julie. If "Transensual" doesn't fit you, then you aren't ever obligated to use it. You are the only one who has the right to choose a label--or to not choose a label. What business do other people have being offended by your identity?

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I don't think this is a bad question. Bit I am not sure why this offends you. At the conference I went to there was a big discussion on "tranny chasing" and fetishizing of trans men and women.

One can assume that anyone who is attracted to a Transman is merely fetishizing him. Let's see how that works out.

Me: Wow, you really turn me on!
Him: If I turn you on, then you are just fetishizing me, which makes you incomplete as a human being.

Can you see the problem here? Can you see that the Transman in this reaction is focusing solely on sex, as if I were nothing more than a set of genitals? Can you see his self-hatred in the assumption that he could not POSSIBLY attract anyone who was MORE than a set of genitals?

I don't think Transmen are that shallow, nor do I believe they are full of self-hatred. I believe that if I say to a Transman, "Wow, you really turn me on!" he's going to understand that my intellect, my emotions, and my sexuality are all engaged, just as they would be with anyone else who turned me on--and I would hope that, whether he returned the sentiments or not, he would at least understand that I was paying him a high compliment.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I don't like straight girls, as far as dating, sex and relationships go. I dig femmes. Am I fetishizing/objectifying/dehumanizing femmes by only preferring them in this regard?

Just a question.

Mr. FemmeSensual

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Drew}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you for getting it and also for your willingness to say so!

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Bit

Nobody has the right to label you, Julie. If "Transensual" doesn't fit you, then you aren't ever obligated to use it. You are the only one who has the right to choose a label--or to not choose a label. What business do other people have being offended by your identity?



One can assume that anyone who is attracted to a Transman is merely fetishizing him. Let's see how that works out.

Me: Wow, you really turn me on!
Him: If I turn you on, then you are just fetishizing me, which makes you incomplete as a human being.

Can you see the problem here? Can you see that the Transman in this reaction is focusing solely on sex, as if I were nothing more than a set of genitals? Can you see his self-hatred in the assumption that he could not POSSIBLY attract anyone who was MORE than a set of genitals?

I don't think Transmen are that shallow, nor do I believe they are full of self-hatred. I believe that if I say to a Transman, "Wow, you really turn me on!" he's going to understand that my intellect, my emotions, and my sexuality are all engaged, just as they would be with anyone else who turned me on--and I would hope that, whether he returned the sentiments or not, he would at least understand that I was paying him a high compliment.



{{{{{{{{{{{{{Drew}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you for getting it and also for your willingness to say so!

I understand what you are saying. The thing is there were a lot of people in this one workshop who *did* feel fetishized. They were pretty upset about it and it was a painful thing for them. It was hard for me to hear and I did not feel there was a place for me as a partner to express what it is about my partner that I love that is part of his trans experience. Because that is part of who he is and it part of why I love him.

In my experience transmen are so often reduced to genitals by many people who so desperately want to know what is in their pants and how do they use it. Simply telling a straight person that I am partnered with a transman immediately means that I am telling them all about my sex life. I was shocked by this reaction. It never occurred to me that this would be the case. To me that feels fetishizing and exoticizing (if that is a word) of transmen. It seems like it takes people, the straight people in my life, a long time to get past what bits someone has.

[SuperFemme]

I don't think it is fetishizing to ANYone to say "Wow, you turn me on". Flip that around to labeling ones self "t-femme or trans-sensual" and it can become problematic. That implies that the self labeler bases their identity on the dangling carrot of partnering with a transgender person.

Trans guys are NOT shallow, in fact I'd venture to say they are far from shallow. One cannot walk a path for years enduring the pain of the outsides not matching the insides and not have depth. Conversely, I think humans are sensitive to others focusing on a specific trait about them rather than the sum of the parts.

Fascinatingly, I don't see Trans people calling themselves Femme-sensual or Woman-Sensual. So yes, it feels to *me* that it is a from of fetish. Which makes me sad. That is a human being worthy of so much more recognition for the complexities of who they are than to have the bulls-eye be on *Trans*.

This commentary is so NOT about Trans or Butch people but rather about the Femmes that choose to put themselves out there carte blanche as an accessory to Trans. THAT in my opinion devalues transgender people and the infinite gender fluidity that exists (whether anyone wants to admit it or not)

[BullDog]

I am wondering about the fetishizing aspect. Are people saying that some trans guys feel fetishized by some femmes identifying as transsensual?

There are some femmes who identify as stone femmes. There are different types of stone femmes, but some of them who identify that way is in part because they are attracted to/partner with stone butches. I am a stone butch. I do not feel fetishized by a femme identifying as a stone femme. I haven't ever heard of any other stone butches saying they are either, although there could be some and I just am not aware of it. It is her identity and if she chooses to identify that way as far as I am concerned that is her choice just as it is my choice to identify as stone butch.

I do understand what some people are saying about how there are some femmes whose identity seems to be based at least in part by who they partner with, whereas butches and trans men don't seem to do that.

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am wondering about the fetishizing aspect. Are people saying that some trans guys feel fetishized by some femmes identifying as transsensual?

There are some femmes who identify as stone femmes. There are different types of stone femmes, but some of them who identify that way is in part because they are attracted to/partner with stone butches. I am a stone butch. I do not feel fetishized by a femme identifying as a stone femme. I haven't ever heard of any other stone butches saying they are either, although there could be some and I just am not aware of it. It is her identity and if she chooses to identify that way as far as I am concerned that is her choice just as it is my choice to identify as stone butch.

I do understand what some people are saying about how there are some femmes whose identity seems to be based at least in part by who they partner with, whereas butches and trans men don't seem to do that.

I wanted to try and maybe answer this (from my perspective). I want to state that just because I feel 'othered' by *my* interpretation of the transsensual femme identity does not mean I do not support those who identify as such, as well as those trans men who do not feel the same way as me. And I respect their right to identify in any way they see fit. Period. (Lest I find my ass being invited from the femme zone to the red zone.)

I think gender and sexuality continue to be confused. For the sake of clarity, I'm only going to speak about the issue from my perspective as a transsexual man who identifies as such. I hear some people who identify as trans, trans guy, transgender, TG, FTM - all who claim to be male/men - transitioned or not - but who do not claim the word transsexual, ever. This is problematic for many reasons, most importantly medical treatment. Some seek to depathologize a medically derived word but that hurts us in the long run (that's a whole other thread) and others feel that the word 'sex' in transsexual furthers the myth that we transition for sexual reasons. It's important here because I want to be clear that I am (and can only speak for) a man of transsexual experience. I do not identify as transgender (which encompasses a WHOLE bunch of identities - including cissexuals). I don't use the ID 'queer' but my politics are very much queer and I will forever remain a staunch ally to this community.

First, I am wondering, because I need to understand, if the transsensual femmes here include in their attraction trans men who have not yet, are uncertain, are unable, or do not wish to seek physical transition. Or are we talking exclusively about men who have completed or are well into their transitions or those who fully intend to? Again, the importance of the usage of the word transsexual - simply, someone born into the wrong body. I do not use that word (as some do) to indicate a stage along a path of transition - meaning "I was a transsexual, then I had surgery/hormones and now I'm a man." Some use the word transsexual to describe only someone who has completed physical transition. This is not the definition of transsexual.

I think it's important to know if transsensual femmes make these distinctions or not in order to pinpoint a fetishism, if one exists. It's also an important distinction to be made if we're to know if transsensual femme stands alone on its own.

I myself am not offended by a woman who might be attracted to my experience. It is, without a doubt, very unique. But being trans is only part of who I am just as being a femme or a girlfriend or a mother or artist or mechanic is only part of who she is. And so it's concerning (to me) if someone is focused on only this part of who I am as much for her as it is for me. I have to wonder, is there only a part of her that is attracted to this part of me? Because I need a complete person to stand up against my complete person. It would also worry me that she would be at high risk of having my experience, my journey, my transition, run all over who she is and I don't want that. (again, this is my concern, not a suggestion that that is what would happen to anyone *here* who identifies as a transsensual femme.)

When it can become, or I should say *seem* problematic, is when women/femmes choose ONLY to partner with trans men, because I'll tell ya, we're not all alike. And I'm sure there's the belief that the likelihood of finding a guy who isn't an asshole is higher amongst trans men. But I know some trans men you would swear never existed one day in a female body. And then there are some who depart from their past and take on less than admirable qualities as their newfound visibility brings more pressure to perform masculinity the way society tells them it's done. (Slight derail: for anyone who judges these men harshly and/or calls them 'traitors', please try to find the compassion to understand how brutal and dangerous this pressure can sometimes be - because until you've unwittingly tipped off the wrong cissexual man to your transsexualism, say, in the men's room, you have no room to speak).

In my personal experience, I'd say we come in as many different varieties as cissexual men (I have found this to be really eye-opening myself) and to think otherwise is stereotyping (like any other stereotype). So when this topic comes up, I always have to ask myself, 'Would she choose a misogynist, sexist prick trans man over a feminist-ally, sensitive cissexual man?" (or any less extreme example) If the answer is yes, or that she would go out and seek another trans man specifically because he's trans and would not consider a cissexual man who comes along with all the same qualities she seeks, I know she has put me in some special category (one in which I likely don't even place myself) and perhaps does not see me as truly male and we are both going to be unhappy (most especially if she's made this distinction because of some aversion she has to cissexual men).

It's invalidating to us as men (just like the "biological male" terminology brought up on another thread in defense of some trans men who take offense to it). I've always been a man. If I'm not a 'biological male', what then? I'm not trying to *change genders*. The issue was with my physical vs. mental development. I can't change my brain. So I have to change my body. And so I have sought therapy to confirm what I know and am seeking treatment to remedy the incongruency.

To separate me from cissexual men is to 'other' me. To say I'm different. But then, the crux of the matter is, I am different. And it's impossible for both me and the woman I choose to partner with not to acknowledge this and talk about it. And I want to know that she appreciates my past - the pain and the struggle as much as the 'good things' like my female upbringing/conditioning and realize that, the painful irony, for both of us, is that those things that make me desirable to her have also been a source of a tremendous amount of torment. She has to love and understand all of that. And I imagine that's extremely difficult for a woman to navigate and accept her own desires around that truth. I don't know. I applaud any woman who can stand beside us on our journeys, before, after and throughout our transitions.

The question BullDog raised is not the same (to me) as with women who prefer to date/partner with stone butches who are cissexual. The identity of stone femme, depending on who you ask, carries a lot of different meanings. It can mean they understand and respect the sexual boundaries of a stone butch, that they prefer the sexual boundaries of a stone butch or simply that they themselves (whether femme or butch) have 'stone' sexual boundaries of their own and need to have those respected. I imagine some stone femmes see the identity as their gender. And still to some, stone femme can reflect a preference for partnering with butches who in their opinion possess a degree of masculinity, a hardness in aesthetic, energy, etc. (not my personal use of the term as I believe it perpetuates a hierarchy myth, but trying to list all that I know) Bottom line is, none of this has to do with a person's gender and/or the alteration of physical self in respect to gender and being visible as such.

BUT...

That brings up the question - does a butch (stone or not), who is not male-identified or masculine-identified or female, but simply butch (as a gender), feel 'othered' or 'fetishized' by individuals who prefer to date them only/specifically? I can't speak to that obviously but I'd be interested to know if anyone cares to answer.

I definitely feel more comfortable with a woman being able to date me regardless of my trans status, as opposed to because of it.

[BullDog]

Thank you very much for your post Hudson. That was very informative.

Just to answer your question at the end, I don't feel at all othered or fetishized by someone stating that their preference is butch only. If that was all someone was interested in about me then that definitely would not be sufficient, but it's a good starting point since I am potentially within the range of attraction. Some people have broader ranges of attraction and some narrower. To me one is not better than the other.

[Bit]

I've been staying out of this thread... it pushed some big buttons for me and I needed a break. We'll see hopw far I get this time. *rueful look*

Originally Posted by evolveme

Except on a purely imaginary, play-pretend, lets-get-theoretical level, Bent can't answer these questions. I can sort of see why you asked him, but since I believe the effort was misplayed (not that I am hurt - I'm not) I'm going to answer.

My identity is in no way contingent upon the individual that I partner with, or any person with whom I might choose to enter sexual relations. My identity has never been and will never be "solely" defined by my sexuality.

That was my point, Julie. Bent was arguing that MY identity IS contingent on that; my question was rhetorical, really, since you've posted before and at length about how you identify.... I wanted him to look at you and look at me and see that we are the same that way, that NEITHER of us has based our identities on our partners.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Because of how I love, which is different than purely sexual desire (obviously), I am best to venture into relationship with a certain subset of masculine females and/or trans males.

Absolutely none of that defines me. It is only a marker, an indicator, as to my desires.

Again, you and I, we are the same--although I wish I had been this concisely articulate about it. You have just defined "Transensual" in the EXACT manner that I use it.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Should I say that my identity is heteronormative? Is that really what we're avoiding saying?

No, I don't think so. You might consider yourself heteronormative, but I sure don't... I live with a Butch, how can I be heteronormative? Everything I do is done with exquisite consciousness that I am NOT "just like a straight girl"--and that's deliberate. I think Queer, I live Queer, I love Queer.

Originally Posted by evolveme

I mean, as long as they aren't saying: I am Femmesensual (and let's face it; they're not - except Hey AZ!), and so few are saying "I id as straight," then it really isn't about identity for them in terms of us.

Maybe this is because they came to a stopping place before I did. Maybe they are content to simply say "Butch" or "Masculine" or whatever. I myself was once content to say "Lesbian" and after that content to say "Femme." But my life took me down a path that surprised, startled, and sometimes frightened me, a path that ultimately led me to the great joy of knowing myself as a whole person.

Being Transensual is about ME. It's about finally decoding my Owner's Manual, finally understanding who and what *I* am.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Someone will tell me my post is a derail.

No, don't think so. Any post that has such a succinct definition of Transensual in it--even though you choose not to use the word--cannot be a derail in a soffa thread.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Hell, Bit, she laughed!

Had e not answered already, my response to you would have been that my partner is a lesbian (whereas I am not) and that the question is hers, not mine, to answer (as she did).

I meant to make you both laugh; glad it worked. And again I say, just as the question was Julie's to answer, it is also MINE to answer. No one else may define Transensual for me.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Let me tell you how I see it from my *ME* space. As a transguy, I feel on the periphery of the butch-femme community sometimes, like I am allowed to be here but this space is really for butches and femmes, not guys like me. That is how I see it. And that is fine, the site is called "Butch-Femme Planet", not "Butch-Femme-Trans Planet". That said, it appears to me that when a femme, who identifies as lesbian, becomes interested in me, it is in-spite of my being trans. Like she is making an exception in my case. However, when a woman says she is a transsensual femme, it means that I am not an exception, that my trans identity isn't something to be overlooked. And that doesn't feel like a fetish at all. Instead, it feels like someone sees me, all of me, and loves me for everything that I am. That is a wonderful feeling.

Just my .02

Drew, you are my hero for that wonderful post. Thank you, thank you.

You are not the only guy who has said that you feel on the periphery in B-F space. You are not the only guy who has said that you sometimes feel a Femme might be interested in spite of your being trans.

When I was single, I put my whole "label" in my profile, Queer Transensual Stonefemme, because I wanted to let Transmen and soffas know there was space for them at the B-F table. I wanted to be a visible marker that said, "Yes, Trans community and allies, you are not alone here; there is a place for us all."

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I understand what you are saying. The thing is there were a lot of people in this one workshop who *did* feel fetishized. They were pretty upset about it and it was a painful thing for them. It was hard for me to hear and I did not feel there was a place for me as a partner to express what it is about my partner that I love that is part of his trans experience. Because that is part of who he is and it part of why I love him.

I think it's important to back up here Julie, and separate out the two parts of your post. I understand that the Transmen felt fetishized, and of course that's horribly painful. It does immediately silence anyone who wants to talk about all the positive things she finds in her lover--because of course being supportive and caring, we can't bring ourselves to add to that pain.

But just who, exactly, did the fetishizing? Did they have concrete examples? Because I will tell you truly, hon, I have only EVER in seven years heard one Transman talk about one personal bad experience with Femmes; he overheard two idiots boasting about putting notches on their lipstick cases. Yes indeed, that was fetishizing, and distasteful---BUT they were boasting at the same time about the BUTCHES who were also notches on the lipstick case, so yanno, I have to think that was about the Femmes themselves, and NOT about the Transman, even though he took it extremely personally.

EVERY example of fetishization I have heard from Transmen after that has either been from Queers of one stripe or another who do not partner with Transmen, or straight people who, as you went on to say, "a long time to get past what bits someone has.".... I have not heard any Transmen speak directly about Transensual Femmes (or any other soffa) fetishizing them.

And now I must split my post... broke the character limit... oops.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I don't think it is fetishizing to ANYone to say "Wow, you turn me on". Flip that around to labeling ones self "t-femme or trans-sensual" and it can become problematic. That implies that the self labeler bases their identity on the dangling carrot of partnering with a transgender person.

Trans guys are NOT shallow, in fact I'd venture to say they are far from shallow. One cannot walk a path for years enduring the pain of the outsides not matching the insides and not have depth. Conversely, I think humans are sensitive to others focusing on a specific trait about them rather than the sum of the parts.

Fascinatingly, I don't see Trans people calling themselves Femme-sensual or Woman-Sensual. So yes, it feels to *me* that it is a from of fetish. Which makes me sad. That is a human being worthy of so much more recognition for the complexities of who they are than to have the bulls-eye be on *Trans*.

This commentary is so NOT about Trans or Butch people but rather about the Femmes that choose to put themselves out there carte blanche as an accessory to Trans. THAT in my opinion devalues transgender people and the infinite gender fluidity that exists (whether anyone wants to admit it or not)

Super,

You know I adore you and think you are so smart and sweet and kind, and very educated. I understand that you are saying that the whole person should be appreciated and not just that they are trans. I agree with that. Same goes for femmes and butches and.... anyone.

Let me tell you how I see it from my *ME* space. As a transguy, I feel on the periphery of the butch-femme community sometimes, like I am allowed to be here but this space is really for butches and femmes, not guys like me. That is how I see it. And that is fine, the site is called "Butch-Femme Planet", not "Butch-Femme-Trans Planet". That said, it appears to me that when a femme, who identifies as lesbian, becomes interested in me, it is in-spite of my being trans. Like she is making an exception in my case. However, when a woman says she is a transsensual femme, it means that I am not an exception, that my trans identity isn't something to be overlooked. And that doesn't feel like a fetish at all. Instead, it feels like someone sees me, all of me, and loves me for everything that I am. That is a wonderful feeling.

Just my .02

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Super,

You know I adore you and think you are so smart and sweet and kind, and very educated. I understand that you are saying that the whole person should be appreciated and not just that they are trans. I agree with that. Same goes for femmes and butches and.... anyone.

Let me tell you how I see it from my *ME* space. As a transguy, I feel on the periphery of the butch-femme community sometimes, like I am allowed to be here but this space is really for butches and femmes, not guys like me. That is how I see it. And that is fine, the site is called "Butch-Femme Planet", not "Butch-Femme-Trans Planet". That said, it appears to me that when a femme, who identifies as lesbian, becomes interested in me, it is in-spite of my being trans. Like she is making an exception in my case. However, when a woman says she is a transsensual femme, it means that I am not an exception, that my trans identity isn't something to be overlooked. And that doesn't feel like a fetish at all. Instead, it feels like someone sees me, all of me, and loves me for everything that I am. That is a wonderful feeling.

Just my .02

I totally get what you are saying. After all, I am married to a transguy. Did I fall in love with hym *in spite* of hys being transgender? Hell no! I fell in love with every fiber of hys being.

I get the feeling of inclusiveness you feel when a woman says she is a transsensual femme. Totally.

For *Me* it is not an either or situation. To love somebody "in spite of" is not to love that person as a whole. To love somebody as a whole is a chance at a successful relationship.

Yet, it feels false to me to love ones SELF as a whole while negating ones identity to whom one is attracted to. Any woman falling in love with YOU is just that. A woman falling in love with YOU. A woman falling in love with you not in spite of you being trans but rather *because* of you being trans feels like shaky ground (for both you and the femme).

But that is just one girl with a bumped head's take on the matter. I am not an expert, I am only speaking my own truth and forwarding the philosophy that we are all lovable for our entire being, not just one aspect. My truth might be the next persons poison. I accept that.

I just want to add that you are incredibly lovable, for a plethora of reasons, not just your transition.