Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by Chazz

I understand your frustration, SelfMadeMan. However, there are places where agendas/perspectives do diverge and conflict. Ignoring, glossing over those areas may serve one, but not both, constituencies. Sometimes agreeing to disagree IS the only respectful route.

Solidarity in all things is not always possible. The expectation of solidarity can foster enmity.
.

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

[DomnNC]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

I agree with you 100% on this. It's time for the bickering to end, we're ALL in the same boat of discrimination, harrassment, and judgemental attitudes and we ALL want the same thing and that is equality and protection under the law.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

Thank you, you're welcome, and likewise, I'm sure. We can agree to disagree.

Maybe you're a little bit of a dreamer. Grand ideals have their place.

In most cases, there is solidarity on the big, issues like human rights and such. However, there are other issues that are knottier, like woman-only spaces and the perception that transitioning endows FTMs with male privilege, etc., etc.. These will not soon be resolved, I think.

Especially, when I read something like this:

It's almost like some of you want us that male identify and can pass or those who have transition to lay down on our bellies, crawl like a snake and beg your (general) forgiveness for simply being who we are. Chuckles, I for one will never do that. I have no apologies to make to anyone for being simply who I am.

This kind of perspective is not inconsequential.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Thank you, you're welcome, and likewise, I'm sure. We can agree to disagree.

Maybe you're a little bit of a dreamer. Grand ideals have their place.

In most cases, there is solidarity on the big, issues like human rights and such. However, there are other issues that are knottier, like woman-only spaces and the perception that transitioning endows FTMs with male privilege, etc., etc.. These will not soon be resolved, I think.

Well since you brought up the knottier issues.... I had to mention that I probably am in solidarity with you on the two topics you touched on. Not to start a whole other thing in here - but I don't think Transmen have any place at a women's only space (i.e. Michigan Women's Music Festival, Women's Universities, etc), nor do I deny that when I transitioned, male privilege came with it. I don't think that has to be a negative, and I honestly don't understand why the mere mention of it pisses some people off. Perhaps it's in the delivery, I don't know, but I do acknowledge I have it and I use it responsibly. My opinions on these issues aren't necessarily popular with some members of the Trans community, so I *get* why you feel that solidarity in all issues may not be possible. But I still think it's something that can be achieved :-)

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Well since you brought up the knottier issues.... I had to mention that I probably am in solidarity with you on the two topics you touched on. Not to start a whole other thing in here - but I don't think Transmen have any place at a women's only space (i.e. Michigan Women's Music Festival, Women's Universities, etc), nor do I deny that when I transitioned, male privilege came with it. I don't think that has to be a negative, and I honestly don't understand why the mere mention of it pisses some people off. Perhaps it's in the delivery, I don't know, but I do acknowledge I have it and I use it responsibly. My opinions on these issues aren't necessarily popular with some members of the Trans community, so I *get* why you feel that solidarity in all issues may not be possible. But I still think it's something that can be achieved :-)

Time will tell on the knottier issues.

My interest in these issues isn't the conflict, per se. It's the inability for some to "see" or accommodate others needs and yet still insist on solidarity. I don't think you're doing this, SelfMadeMan.

Solidarity is an eye focused on the greater good. It is not, necessarily, unanimity of purpose or belief in all things, at all times. It's a renewable commodity, not stasis. No community can thrive on stasis.

Solidarity comes at a cost. It requires that individuals be able to budge, temporarily at least, move out of their comfort zone, forgo an immediate personal gain for the good of someone else.

This is a difficult thing for people who have suffered oppression, each in their own way, to achieve when their perceived needs sometimes come in conflict. Is it worth aspiring to, sure. The key word here is perceived.

Perceptions aren't reality. Feelings aren't facts. Solidarity is achieved when a common reality is agreed up based upon facts. Each of us must be sure that the story we tell ourselves about our lives, is consistent with the facts of our lives. Otherwise, we're waving at windmills and alienating those who might, otherwise, unite with us towards the greater good. Erecting hierarchies of oppression and playing upon people's emotions and/or guilt will not work over the long term.

That's it for me. I have to tend to the flood in my basement.