Do Businesses Have the Right to Refuse Service Based on Moral/Religious Objections?

[Arwen]

Absolutely a business owner has the right to refuse service.

This is why I can tell people no, I won't read for them because they are hateful, etc.

[DomnNC]

The question was NOT about refusing service to gay people exclusively. The question was:

Do you think a business has the right to refuse service based on moral/religious beliefs?

No where does it state it was exclusive to gay people, that was just the example provided!

[Soon]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

The question was NOT about refusing service to gay people exclusively. The question was:

Do you think a business has the right to refuse service based on moral/religious beliefs?

No where does it state it was exclusive to gay people, that was just the example provided!

So, I am not sure where you are going with this.

The reason I left it open is because if one believes that business owners do have the right to refuse service based on religious or moral objections, then it goes beyond our LGBT community and should, logically, extend to other groups.

[julieisafemme]

I'm sorry. I guess I am not understanding the questions or point of this thread. I don't think someone should be refused service because they are queer. I still don't want to make confederate cupcakes though!

[betenoire]

HSIN can correct me if I'm wrong (But I think I'm right about her question/intent since we've been chatting about it all last night and this morning too) but I do believe that what she was trying to discuss was:

- Is it okay to deny services to someone because of who they are (not because of what they do)
- Even though sexual orientation is not an official protected group in many places, should we be afforded the same protections that people are afforded due to race and religion
- If we should not be a protected group - should there be ANY protected groups?
- Should religious people get a "pass" for discriminating against us because religion is also a protected class

Did I miss anything, HSIN?

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by betenoire

HSIN can correct me if I'm wrong (But I think I'm right about her question/intent since we've been chatting about it all last night and this morning too) but I do believe that what she was trying to discuss was:

- Is it okay to deny services to someone because of who they are (not because of what they do) Not if it is illegal obviously. This is where I have a problem. I want to deny service to bigots even if they are not engaged in bigoted acts. That is who they are. I do not want someone denying me service because I am queer or my partner service because he is a transman. Lame and waffly I know but that is the best I can come up with!

- Even though sexual orientation is not an official protected group in many places, should we be afforded the same protections that people are afforded due to race and religion YES- Transgender people as well.

If we should not be a protected group - should there be ANY protected groups? N/A

- Should religious people get a "pass" for discriminating against us because religion is also a protected class. Absolutely no one should get a pass for breaking the law. Unfortunately as you pointed out there are not laws that protect us in some places. That is why we are fighting for equality here. Since we are engaged in that fight and want the laws to be changed the answer is NO religious people do not get a pass. No one gets a pass.

Did I miss anything, HSIN?

Bold answers

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by June

I am pretty sure a) They are connected in some way and b) They don't like my kind. I have lived in this neighborhood for 8 years, and have never gone in there because of that, but I was desperate.

Right, and I DO think that it's unfortunate that the couple from the OP didn't research who they were buying their flowers from. I know before I make any sort of significant purchase I check into things to make sure I'm giving my money to my kind of people.

So sure, it's unfortunate. And maybe from now on they WILL look into where their money goes. This has probably been a life lesson for that couple.

But, you know. I don't know their situation. I don't know anything about the town they are from. I don't know if there are other florists, or if this is like the Flintstones where Fred had to take services from the caterer who did a shitty job because "I'm the ONLY caterer in town!"

So, like I said, while it is really a shame that this couple didn't think harder about where their money is going (provided they really had other options - because I have no idea) it's a double shame that we live in a world where they should HAVE to think harder about who they buy from.

What the florist did was wrong wrong wrong. (And illegal - haha!)

ETA - Gotta go have a shower and get ready for work. You people have fun without me!

[DomnNC]

Ok, I'll toss this out there before I go to pick up my nephew.

I'm a systems analyst/programmer. I design and write business computer systems for my clients. Let's say one of my clients refer someone to me. It's a big ole church, they want me to design a system that among things tracks the number of GLBT people attending their church, reason being, they are getting complaints from some members of their congregation about said members. They tell me to put a threshold on it, if it meets that threshold then they want a list of all GLBT members who attend their church because they are going to tell them they are no longer welcome there to worship. Should I (as a member of the GLBT community) accept them as a client knowing full well they are basically going on a witch hunt in MY community???

What if one of my business clients wanted me to do the same thing, since in NC we have no protection due to sexual orientation or gender identification, and they want expressedly state these employees will be fired? Do I retain them as a client and program their system as they wish knowing full well that my peers are going to be terminated???

That IS against my moral compass so according to you all I shouldn't have the right to say NO I'll NOT be part of your witch hunts! Sorry, you're going to lose out on this one because I will refuse to be part of it and will decline accepting a client because of such bullshit.

If you wanted the discussion/question to be solely about the GLBT community then you should have stated as such instead of leaving the question wide open in my opinion.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

If you wanted the discussion/question to be solely about the GLBT community then you should have stated as such instead of leaving the question wide open in my opinion.

Snipped the part I will address.

DomnNC,

I already answered why I left it open and Ender explained it as well.

Again, I left it open because I want to know if it is OK for businesses deny ANYONE service (grounded in their religious and moral beliefs) because of that group's immutable characteristic or intrinsic belief system (religion)--not behaviour.

If you are going to deny the queers, you might as well take back all other groups of people who are already federally protected.

What is the difference b/w refusing someone b/c they are queer and refusing someone because they are a woman (etc.)--as long as that person has deep religious or moral objections to a certain class of people, they are entitled to refuse service?

[Spork]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

Ok, I'll toss this out there before I go to pick up my nephew.

I'm a systems analyst/programmer. I design and write business computer systems for my clients. Let's say one of my clients refer someone to me. It's a big ole church, they want me to design a system that among things tracks the number of GLBT people attending their church, reason being, they are getting complaints from some members of their congregation about said members. They tell me to put a threshold on it, if it meets that threshold then they want a list of all GLBT members who attend their church because they are going to tell them they are no longer welcome there to worship. Should I (as a member of the GLBT community) accept them as a client knowing full well they are basically going on a witch hunt in MY community???

What if one of my business clients wanted me to do the same thing, since in NC we have no protection due to sexual orientation or gender identification, and they want expressedly state these employees will be fired? Do I retain them as a client and program their system as they wish knowing full well that my peers are going to be terminated???

That IS against my moral compass so according to you all I shouldn't have the right to say NO I'll NOT be part of your witch hunts! Sorry, you're going to lose out on this one because I will refuse to be part of it and will decline accepting a client because of such bullshit.

If you wanted the discussion/question to be solely about the GLBT community then you should have stated as such instead of leaving the question wide open in my opinion.

I have to agree with you on this, because I also understood it was not only about LGBT being accepted or not in business. I thought it was merely an example.

But the question having "based on moral/religious objections" on it made me think that, well, I'm not particularly religious but I have my own set of morals. And mine make me cringe if I were to work for a bigot.

I understand that this flower lady did something illegal in her country/state/town. But it's not always illegal elsewhere, so I think some are tackling the issue from that viewpoint.

If it's perfectly okay for someone to deny us service because we're gay, don't we have the same right?

I'm not saying, and I think others aren't saying, that we'll all start declining to work for certain groups. But we have a choice, a right.

One last thing, I thought "businesses" meant something privately owned by a person or group of people, for the sole purpose of selling services/products and profiting. I gave my opinion on that particular type of organization. Organizations with social obligations (pharmacies) or state-owned (hospitals) are an entirely different thing, from what I've learned. Those are usually subject to different laws, and have an obligation to serve the public regardless of gender, race, ideology, etc.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Absolutely a business owner has the right to refuse service.

This is why I can tell people no, I won't read for them because they are hateful, etc.

It is not about denying someone service based on their bad behaviour.

We are talking about people being denied services for WHO and WHAT they are.

Being a bigot is a choice--being queer is not. For the most part, it is an immutable or ingrained characteristic.

The government does not make someone serve a customer because of poor behaviour; however, the government has decided that people must be served due to a host of other categories.

But some think that queer people should NOT be entitled to services based solely on an owner`s moral and religious objections...I just don`t see how it is different from any other already protected classes and I really can`t get on the same page as LGBT folks being compared to some customer`s shitty attitudes.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Thirdly - I want to know, then, since you think it's okay to refuse services to people just for being gay - do you think that there should be no protected classes of people at all? Do you think that business owners should get to turn people away for being Asian? Hindu? I know Rand Paul thinks that business owners should get to do that, so it's not a totally far-fetched fringe notion.

And if you don't think that business owners should be able to turn people away because of their race or their religion - why do you think it's okay to turn people away because of their sexual orientation?

Didn't mean to chop up your post, betenoire, but these questions really cut down to something that's been bothering me in this thread. I'd be really interested in hearing the answers to these questions on refusing someone based on race vs. sexual orientation from those who do think that business owners should have the right to deny service based on religious beliefs/morals.

Originally Posted by DomnNC

The question was NOT about refusing service to gay people exclusively. The question was:

Do you think a business has the right to refuse service based on moral/religious beliefs?

No where does it state it was exclusive to gay people, that was just the example provided!

Like HowSoon said, I'm not sure where you're going with this. Yes, the question was not about refusing service to gay people exclusively, but on refusing service to anyone based on morals/beliefs (particularly religious morals and beliefs). What does that change?

One could just as easily state that it is morally wrong (according to their religion) for them to provide their service to Jews (sound familiar?) or Muslims. They could do this with people of different ethnicities as well. Should they be legally able to deny their service based on their religious views? Why should they be allowed to refuse service? Whatever happened to equal access and opportunity?