Reclaiming Androgyny & The Text Book Definition

[Turtle]

So, when I saw this on the home page I was thinking "OK, there is a theme for today" ~ Be who you are, own it, don't let other folks tell you who you are or what you do.

EVERY time I take a gender test I score as androgynus. Yup. I am me and other folks don't get to tell me who I am....and I do get to live and learn and grow and change into the new me I am always becoming a magnificent new concrescence every moment. (even if i am an ass at times)

[Chazz]

This is a thought provoking thread!

As a matter of course, I don't think about identity labels all that much. I'm just me, being me, on a moment by moment. I don't give labels butch/femme/androgyny/gender queer/transgender/..... all that much thought. Except, from a political perspective.

Online and offline in LGBTQ circles, I'm pegged as a [hard, masculine looking] butch. I don't embrace the label "masculine" because, TO ME, it smacks of a false gender duality; one I've been rejecting all my life. The more "butch" becomes associated with, or defined as some version of (variation on?) "masculinity", the more I bridle under it's weight. I'm not "masculine". I'm a lesbian woman who does not abide by contemporary canon about sex, gender or sexual orientation in mainstream or LGBTQ culture.

Associating me with "femininity", would be a source of hilarity everywhere.

For me, the term androgyny does NOT denote "masculine" AND "feminine"(or some mix thereof), it denotes NEITHER.

I'm a hybrid. Some might say a 3rd gender, perhaps, one of many. I suspect people are like snow flakes, no two are the same.

I do not now, nor have I ever had, "cis-gender privilege". As I've said elsewhere, conformity isn't a privilege. I HAVE stopped letting issues of privilege, conformity, passing, gender, etc., rent space in my head. With a very few provisos, I've stopped caring what other people think.

The more comfortable I get in my own skin, the less I give gender identity thought. This doesn't make me "privileged". It's the payoff for much hard, inner work. The result of a life-long process that allows me to reject "gender" as a paradigm, all together. Arguing gender is like arguing: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin. In the end, it's unanswerable because gender is a construct. A construct is about DOING, not BEING.

I sometimes wonder what our "community" might be DOING if we all stopped identifying with constructs.

(Yes, I do understand that "coming out" and self-understanding are a part of everyone's process. I'm just trying to dribble the ball down the court a little. I'm a heretic by nature.)

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by June

In the past few years, I have observed a trend towards hyper-masculinizing/feminizing in our community. I am not sure why that is.

As though being Butch isn't good enough and you have to add High before Femme to get the finished product.

I am in a FB group of mostly Europeans and they look at gender and presentation in a much more relaxed way that I find refreshing. They seem happier with themselves overall, actually.

This rigid policing of gender and desire is starting to get really old for me, so I am glad people are talking about the dreaded "A" word.

People who are confident in who they are are sexy, regardless of their label. People who swagger around claiming they would never wear pink or they garden in their stiletto's, not so much (for me).

I am tired of this rigidity, too. Really, really tired of it. Yes, confident in being who one is- that is a multi-faceted turn on!

Reclaiming androgyny- or redefining it for today is a wonderful idea. We do not have to settle for definitions that no longer fit or just need a tune-up!

I love what is feminine and masculine about myself, always have.

Glad to see this thread!

[BullDog]

I do embrace my masculinity, but I can see why many butch women do not since it continues to be equated with male most of the time, including in butch femme circles.

I do think of androgyny as being a blend of masculine and feminine as opposed to neither.

Good topic.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I do embrace my masculinity, but I can see why many butch women do not since it continues to be equated with male most of the time, including in butch femme circles.

I do think of androgyny as being a blend of masculine and feminine as opposed to neither.

Good topic.

A blend and I believe it can be a much more fluid manner to identify or describe. Back in "my day" it was used positively and carried with it a sense of "equality"- well, within my "circles."

I have never experienced so much slicing and dicing of gender identity as I have within the B-F community. Not my favorite aspect of it. Although, sometimes I honestly think it is simply how people try to find their comfort zone with gender. That is a neutral state to me- not positive or negative, simply musing and figuring out something.

Why some things get so charged is amazing to me. I do embrace my own masculinity, but see it as stemming from the feminine (which is really a personal spiritual concept). I don't view either as good or bad.

As June brought up, I don't know why we in the US are so damn focused on such narrow definitions of gender. To me, this is something that ought to be the height of diversity.

[princessbelle]

I have this thought, just my own way of seeing the seemingly real push to identify online to basically how butch you are vs. how femme.

"I identify as this or that or i don't identify in any group or don't ask me...i am me. "

You know when *we* go to a gay bar for instance, people don't run around with name tags on that say *ftm* or *androgynous* or *butch and prefer she* etc. You are either attracted to someone or you aren't, at the beginning anyway. Besides the fact of knowing that person on a deeper level, the first thing we honestly notice is the way they look, react to people, talk, and or *especially for me* their movements and swagger or walk.

Online this is almost impossible. Well, we do have photos but you can't see the movements, the shading of the person, the eyes into who they really are other than the thoughts or posts they provide. The thoughts of others are very important but it generally doesn't tell you if they are *what you are looking for* by reading "What made you smile today" thread.

I'm betting on the fact that the majority of us aren't that shallow as to try and mold people into a group that has been discussed a million times and one in which i'm pretty sure we will never all agree totally to each definition of the IDs. I'm also betting on the fact that without these IDs as noted on many profiles we could talk it up and then meet and find out it is not as we perceived things (not to say that doesn't happen...but it would certainly happen more IMO).

Maybe i'm looking at this too elementary, too simply...but to me the IDs are just a tool to help us *see* each other. Maybe we aren't trying to disect ourselves or others with the labeling but just an honest way to "see" who we are having a drink with, a talk with, a connection with. I honestly don't know of too many people on here that say i'm this or that and doesn't appreciate how someone else IDs as well.

On here saying you are androgynous may make many turn away or turn toward, but in real time, i don't think the way someone IDs is that important. You are either attracted or you aren't.

Maybe the attention we give to IDs is just because we aren't sitting in a room with drinks of ...water. IMO online it is often hard to recognize or conceed to our attrations if we don't fully understand how the other person.....swaggers or walks.

[Quintease]

I love androgyny!

The first time I saw my bf put on a pink shirt I knew we would be all. right. He's a beautiful boy and his disregard for gendered colours makes me love him all the more.

My ex gf, my last serious relationship, was much the same. Everyone thought she was butch.. until the first time they saw her partying in lipstick and girly outfits. She never dressed for any one else.

[Martina]

i don't think of androgyny when i think of combinations of masculine and feminine energy. To me, androgyny is an attempt to not be recognized as either. It's like you have to achieve a balance or you have failed. And historically, i think it was an attempt to get out from under sexist notions of femininity without reconstructing them. In some ways, it's a fantasy of not having to deal with difference.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

i don't think of androgyny when i think of combinations of masculine and feminine energy. To me, androgyny is an attempt to not be recognized as either. It's like you have to achieve a balance or you have failed. And historically, i think it was an attempt to get out from under sexist notions of femininity without reconstructing them. In some ways, it's a fantasy of not having to deal with difference.

This is exactly how I perceive it.

[Sachita]

when I was much younger I dated ultra femme women or what I called "sporty" at the time. I didn't know much about butch-femme but I knew I was sexually attracted to a certain look. I discovered androgyny. Especially younger, submissive men and women, really I didn't see a gender per se. In fact looking back the serious relationships I was in were with what I call 3rd sex. I know we've had lots of discussion about this but I define it as a type of androgyny. Not only in looks but in action/movement. I admit that I find this highly sexual. (evil grin)

I'm into any type of gender bending, the more extreme the better.

[MarineCorps1]

I'll second that - gender bending is hot. I would describe myself as androgynous, certainly - I get "sir'ed" frequently when I'm not trying, sometimes I get "ma'am'ed" when I think I look the most butch.

I get mistaken for a guy sometimes even when I'm making no attempt to hide my breasts. I walk like a man, even in a dress- I just can't hide it. And kids peg me most often - usually as the opposite of my bio gender. I think their minds are more open to accepting what's in front of them than adults who've been trained that everything has a neat little place where it's supposed to fit.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by MarineCorps1

And kids peg me most often - usually as the opposite of my bio gender. I think their minds are more open to accepting what's in front of them than adults who've been trained that everything has a neat little place where it's supposed to fit.

I love kids. They don't know to be embarrassed or ashamed for wondering about gender or asking questions. Know = how society tells us we should feel/think.

It doesn't happen extremely often (I think somewhat because I am not around young kids often), but I love the, "Are you a boy or a girl", question!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by June

I was thinking about what androgyny means to me -- When I hear the word, I think of someone who is more comfortable using that term than Butch, Femme or even "Soft Butch" or "Femmy". I know we use it derisively a lot as in "Oh, yeah, she was kind of cute, but too adro for me".

Which is pretty dismissive and judgemental as well as binary reflective.

I think it might get misused as well, for instance, someone describing a long haired, self ID'd Butch as "Andro" just because their visual presentation is different than the "norm". The same could happen with a short haired self ID'd Femme, too.

Maybe we need a "Hair" re-make? Speaking of the play- and how it reflected what was going on in that era. What would it look like now?

So strange- I think that andro can be used as you state- many don't want to use butch or femme. Although, I use butch, I feel androgynous as it has been understood for a long time- and it isn't gender neutral- it is about merging and interweaving. It also has significance in Native cultures and things like Two Spirit. Obviously, androgyny is significant to those identifying as 3rd Gendered or to Transpeople as well as Butches or Femmes.

[Luckydwg07]

enjoying the topic ...Good stuff!

[AtLast]

What would we do without poetic license?

Think about terms/concepts that have been re-claimed as well as powerized and bring groups that once were put down by them new strength and promise.

Acknowledging history does not mean remaining in the past- especially when it comes to gender.

[AlexHunter]

If I could hit the "thanks" button a million times to the original poster, I would. Thanks, Toph.

Unfortunately, it seems this user has not logged in since 2010.

Anyway, anyhow...

I use the term "androgynous" to describe myself for the same reasons. I am physically androgynous, without a doubt. I would imagine butches who bind, pack, wear men's clothes, and have short, typically male haircuts are usually androgynous in appearance. Some are androgynous even without the binding or packing, because society takes cues from wardrobe, haircut, and mannerisms. While those things all cause one to present as masculine, the female body remains underneath - biologically female hands, neck, face, arms, et cetera - and this contradiction of nature causes a person to look and think twice about what someone has below the belt.

Hell, in Stone Butch Blues, Jess (the narrator) ends up going by the term "he-she." I modernized it to "dude chick," but it's the same idea. I do feel being "not quite a man and not quite a woman" places one in the androgynous category, if it is a term said person feels like claiming.

I say genderqueer is my mental presentation. Androgyny is my physical presentation. Butch is my attitude.

[Toph]

June;
i have a lot of issues about the same thing!
sometimes i feel more acceptance in the 'straight' world than in the gay world.
sad but true. when are you butch enough? when are you femme enough?
i wouldn't have expected this, but sadly it seems to be surrounding us. when is enough enough?

[Soft*Silver]

its interesting that when people think of women being androgynous they speak often about their masculine energy confusing people.

I have been evolving over the past few years and have found that when I dress lately, its not hyper femme like I use to. And my hair is nowhere near a girl's cut anylonger. My local friends have even said a few times to me that I am drawing closer to androgyny. Which panicked me, because back when I came out, androgyny was a political uniform and I wore it to fit in with the other lesbian feminists. Which of course was the wrong reason to "become" anything, but its where I was at, at the moment.

But here I am, sitting in my pretty and plus store, with short black hair, andro glasses, short nails, jean shorts and a basic t. If I didnt have earrings on, what would mark me as a femme? My nephews, age 8, told me the last time I babysat with him, my hair made me look like a boy. But I am a woman and a femme.

I have to go to a huge awards banquet tomorrow night. I have been looking for a gown to wear. I wonder if this andro period/evolv has something to do with it.

[Toph]

when i was a kid i would drive in the car with my momma, she was a New Yorker so her driving was somewhat exciting...she never used her blinkers...i would say momma jesus use the turn signal and she would say and i quote "let the fuckers guess"

that now is my motto in life. it makes me laugh right out loud that my own community spends more time exploring my physical appearance for sign of a gender than extending an olive branch of acceptance which could possibly result in new friendships and understandings.

that is why i prefer dogs!

[Lady_Di]

lol... I prefer dogs and horses, too.



thank you for the smile, I needed that

My mother also is a New Yorker, who met quite a few gender bending folks in the 1940's. There really is nothing new under the sun. Just folks like to think everything is new and improved.

Love your mother's attitude. Though I am glad I am not driving behind her!