Female Bodies Across Gender Identities

[Bit]

Originally Posted by I'mOneToo

This is an interesting topic, but it seems like it might fall to the bottom of the fish bowl.

Thanks for stirring it back to the surface!

I strongly suspect that the woman who was policing your gender in the store lied to you. My guess is that there is no such policy about the dressing rooms. I myself have used men's dressing rooms when the women's was clear across the store--and in this economy, I bet the manager would have preferred you bought a pair of pants no matter which room you used.

I think that, like BullDog, your anonymity worked against you. I'm willing to bet that had either sales clerk/cashier known either of you as a person, they would never have been able to dismiss you so cavalierly. I've noticed that sales clerks and cashiers in department stores quite often seem to see me as merely one of a set of interchangeable objects, "customer," rather than as an individual.

Originally Posted by Amelia

Gay women can perv on each other.

Eeeew. That's just distasteful to me... I don't wish to be ogled in a dressing room by ANYONE, nor do I wish to ogle anyone. It's all about trying the clothes on as fast as possible and getting the heck back out.

I understand that you're working your way logically through the whole thing and I see that you're making progress--it's just that the sentence I quoted really pushed a button with me. Ew.

I don't know how to provide safety in dressing rooms and I guess, when I think about it, I don't expect safety in dressing rooms.

Maybe that's one reason I hate trying clothes on; I just don't expect it to be safe? *shrugs*

[Medusa]

Bit,

Your post was reported. The part where you quoted Amelia talking about "Gay women perving on each other" and then your subsequent response of "Eeeeew, that's distasteful" can feel hurtful to people who identify as Gay Women if you dont specify that you are feeling "Eeeeww" about being perved in the bathroom or if you are "Eeeewing" Gay women perving on each other.

The way it is written feels targeted to Gay Women specifically because the whole paragraph isnt quoted, just the part about Gay Women.

We want to maintain a welcoming space for folks who identify as Gay Women, Trans women, Lesbians, Butches, Femmes, and Dykes. I know you stand behind that so let's all please try to aware of the space when responding.

Thanks so much,
a

[Jess]

Great thread! I know that personally I do relate to a lot of issues "femmes" face because I am afterall, a woman. I however, feel uncomfortable intruding on femme space, as I am fully aware that they are usually coming from a slightly different space with the same issues ( or seeking a specific type of support/ understanding) and it just feels odd for me to say "well, yanno.. me too".

I totally get the whole "shopping/ trying on clothes/ public restroom " issues. My partner is usually more aware than I am of the ogles, or comments if she is nearby, because I have for the most part taught myself to ignore folks. When it is glaringly obvious, I become incredibly uncomfortable, as if I am in the wrong place. The double takes at me then at the name of the door.. and the worse by far is a mom who ushers her child away. That one really stings.

I'm sure there are a great many issues that cross the gender preference line and I will visit this thread often. Thanks again for opening the door!

[Dragonfly]

I am sorry that my thoughts were taken that way. I am sorry you were bothered by the way I worded my thoughts. I was not saying gay women or men DO perv on each other but was thinking so logically that I did not realize it may cause uncomfort to anyone. I was actually thinking about my own feelings in said "female" bathrooms and dressing rooms. I am so sorry to be in there that I think it shows to the others in there. I look down a lot in the bathrooms or away from people coming in and out.

Dressing rooms are harder because the curtain ones. I prefer doors. I AM looked at like I AM perving by the other ladies going in and out, but really only when I am dressed in obviously male marketed clothing and trying on more obviously male marketed items. I AM NOT perving of course. And I really dont like the thought of anyone of any gender or sexuality imposing their eyes were they are not invited to look.

I was exploring the separation of genders and the why's that various genders and sexualities may WANT separate privacy places. If I am uncomfortable being in there, I imagine the other people may be as- or more- uncomfortable having me in there. I only meant that society is "putting up with" same sexualities being in places together but not wanting to mix genders.

Oh and I have never had a prob using the men's dressing rooms by the sales clerks or the men using them. I personally dont feel comfy dressing in some of them, (esp ones unsupervised and off in the corner of a large store) but it is easier on everyone's comfort if I do. I'd rather be the one uncomfortable than make the little old ladies feel uncomfortable when they can't tell if I am a man or woman in there.

Ooo I also love the Salvation Army and Thrift Stores dressing rooms because they are single rooms and non gendered. Some of our gay clubs nearby have a third restroom or non gendered restrooms. I love that and never feel uncomfy or like I am seen as some perv in my own community. I assume they "get it" and dont think twice about it.

It seems like it is individuals on a power trip that are using it as an excuse to discriminate and hurt rather than serve said customer.

And yes those two places are sometimes abused by the criminal behavior of a sexual intrusive nature, and I always cover the floor drains with my foot before going pee. lol. I saw that hidden camera crap on the news.

[Jess]

Seems a shame to have to think so much just to take a piss. I would prefer to have non gender specific full closure "stalls" in public facilities. Perhaps men and women ( and all variations ) would be forced to be a tad more courteous.. ie: not pissing on seats.. not hogging sink to do make up... I see using the restroom in public as a necessity, not some field trip or a place to "pick up" folks. I leave that for erotica fantasy. LOL!
As for changing rooms, I actually very rarely try something on. Either it fits ( great!) or it doesn't and I take it back.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Amelia

I am sorry that my thoughts were taken that way. I am sorry you were bothered by the way I worded my thoughts. I was not saying gay women or men DO perv on each other but was thinking so logically that I did not realize it may cause uncomfort to anyone. I was actually thinking about my own feelings in said "female" bathrooms and dressing rooms. I am so sorry to be in there that I think it shows to the others in there. I look down a lot in the bathrooms or away from people coming in and out.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Amelia}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

You don't owe me any apologies, sweetheart. It was very obvious that you were following a logical line of thought, and you were correct; society is very quick to keep men and women separated in dressing rooms as if we are all heterosexual.

Just because you said something that I responded to with discomfort doesn't mean that you did anything wrong---nor does it mean that I thought YOU believed it was okay. I completely understood that you were being logical, and analyzing the situation, and that it bothered you too.

I hope you understand that. You did not attack or hurt me in any way--you just happened to say something that pushed a big button for me. I'm sorry if my response made you feel bad in any way; I didn't intend it to.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Bit,

Your post was reported. The part where you quoted Amelia talking about "Gay women perving on each other" and then your subsequent response of "Eeeeew, that's distasteful" can feel hurtful to people who identify as Gay Women if you dont specify that you are feeling "Eeeeww" about being perved in the bathroom or if you are "Eeeewing" Gay women perving on each other.

*absolutely flabbergasted*

I specified IMMEDIATELY in my post that I was talking about being "perved on"--I used the word "ogled" because to me that means the same thing, eyes but no physical assault--in a dressing room.

Originally Posted by Cath

Eeeew. That's just distasteful to me... I don't wish to be ogled in a dressing room by ANYONE, nor do I wish to ogle anyone.

Gay Women of any stripe are certainly free to perv on anyone they please at any time they please, but Amelia had been talking about being assaulted by men in a dressing room, and how important it was to her that her privacy not be invaded---and so I thought about dressing rooms, and all the children, teens, straight women in them when I have used them, in the context of being assaulted and having one's privacy invaded.

I'm sorry it wasn't more clear in my post that I was talking about having my privacy invaded--being "perved on" in a dressing room--but yanno, since the specification "in a dressing room" was part of the same sentence, I dunno how to make it any more clear.

My apologies to anyone who was offended.

[Dragonfly]

I just want to be specific here so I am not misunderstood.

I am not afraid of being assaulted in a bathroom or dressing room by men. I have been sexually assaulted by both male and female genders. I do not think all males are a danger to me, so I hope no one here is thinking that was my point.

I was speaking generally about everyone's privacy and the way society views protecting that privacy by separating genders and not by sexuality. I wasn't speaking about my own privacy as much as I was speaking about addressing the gender separation being FLAWED.

I know of one bio male for sure that uses stalls because he doesn't like anyone to see his parts. I don't think the female gender is the only feelings to be considered with this topic. Males do not like to be objectified and they need and deserve privacy too! I know men who will not even fart around a woman. These types def do NOT want females in the bathroom when they "go".

But I use the men's bathroom and dressing rooms as I please. It depends on how I am dressed that day, it really does. Like I already said, it's usually the little ole ladies that I try not to upset. So far no one has stopped me. Laughed or whispered yeah. But I have never had a lady drag their kid out of the men's restroom cause I was in there. That has happened in the ladies room. I really know how you felt Jess in that moment. Queer does NOT = child molester!

Gender separation is done for the purpose of privacy and safety, but if someone who is sexually attracted to one gender is in the same rooms as that gender... well logically it seems to defeat the purpose anyway. I was just musing how it could be solved socially world wide that would be accepted by hetero and queer cultures... as well as be non discriminating about gender Id's.

Perving is eww. I wish I had worded that sentence differently, (or combined the woman man statement as one sentence) . Without the sentence that followed it, I can see where someone would be offended by Bit responding eww if only that sentence is quoted. As Medusa specified, its ok to say eww about perving. Its the post as a whole that may cause hurt feelings if only one gender is what you say eww about.

I think Medusa just wanted to make the point that It isn't ok to say woman on woman restroom perving is eww and not include the men on men bathroom perving too because those statements were wrote together... to be less discriminating in general. That was why I wrote about both together. And when you specify "That one line really bothers me" and quote only the woman on woman part... well it can be even more offensive.

I am sure Bit didn't mean that post to be like this at all...so please everyone remember that there has been some hurt feelings around BF community that makes some feel unwelcome or think that others are saying they dont belong at BF sites ... Some things you just don't say in public, or you word it positive not negative. No one minds when you simply say I am into... but I am not into....

And if ya'll wanna say eww I would be soo grossed out if Amelia were to come on to me, I wouldnt care one little bit. BUT same person saying the same thing about one of my friends would get a defensive reaction out of me. I am not offended being told I am not someone's type. I AM offended when someone causes pain to the community in general.

[BullDog]

Amelia, I think you made some really great points about the way public spaces such as restrooms and dressing rooms assume 2 genders and that people are heterosexual, which is so not the case and causes lots of confusion and difficulty.

Unfortunately the reality is that a majority of violent crimes are committed by men against women. Of course there are women who can physically assault women or men as well as men who can assault other men, but these do not occur as frequently. So women in places like public restrooms or dressing rooms can feel uncomfortable if they perceive men in the room. I do understand this.

As a female I can also feel uncomfortable in dressing rooms with lots of men in them. When I am feeling uncomfortable I will carry my clothes over to the womens dressing room. I don't use Mens restrooms. I was a custodian in college for a few summers, and no offense to anyone but I would prefer to never see the inside of a Mens restroom ever again. To me the cleanliness factor between the two was no comparison.

I myself tend to be the most uncomfortable around young males, especially when they are in groups, because they are the ones who have hassled me the most. It doesn't mean all young males are bad.

I don't usually get hassled in public restrooms. I am perceived to be female most of the time, although not always. Awhile ago I had gone to the barbershop to get my hair cut. Then I wanted to get lunch. As I was going into the restaurant a group of people was going in. One was an elderly woman in a walker. After I had ordered my lunch I went to use the restroom. I always use the Womens. It was a small bathroom with 2 stalls. After I was behind the stall, I noticed someone came in. I could see the walker. I tried to get out of the bathroom as soon as I could just to make sure I would not startle an elderly woman in a walker in case I confused her. I was not trying to be ageist or anything. For all I know she could have turned around and said, "nice haircut." But I didn't want to make anyone uncomfortable in a small public space so I got out as soon as I could. So I do try to be aware that in some situations I might make someone uncomfortable in female spaces because I am not the typical female they might be expecting.

There are some unisex bathrooms where I live, but they are one stall like in some restaurants. I do use them when they are available.

Bit, thank you for participating in the thread. To me it was clear it was the perving you were uncomfortable with, not gay women. You said ANYONE.

Jess, yes I think as females we have some of the same issues that femmes have and that is one of the reasons I started the thread, so we could all talk together. I have also had parents physically pull their children farther away from me in public. I love children, so yeah that is hurtful to me.

Thank you everyone who is participating in the thread. I look forward to more good convo.

[Bit]

I'm going to try one more time, and if it still isn't clear, I'll drop it.

We were talking about the discomfort of being naked in a semi-public place. We were talking about being "perved on"--in other words, ogled in a sexual manner while we are naked in a semi-public place--by strangers. We were talking about privacy.

The context was dressing rooms, so I thought about the dressing rooms I have used. I've almost never used an empty women's dressing room; they've almost always been teeming with children, teens, and women I have presumed were straight. I seldom see anyone I can recognize as a fellow queer in a dressing room.

When Amelia followed the logical path of the discussion and talked about how dressing rooms are segregated for sexual safety, but society turns a blind eye on having queers use same sex dressing rooms, she said in an ironic way--and I did catch the irony--"Gay Women can perve on each other."

Two things. The first is that I immediately identified as a Gay Woman being perved on. Otherwise, WHY would I have any kind of reaction, right?

The second is, all those children, teens and straight women flashed into my mind, and I want N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with "perving on" any of them. I don't want that idea anywhere near me. It is distasteful in the extreme to me. It is the specter of "perverted queers" and pedophilia. My reaction to that is ALWAYS going to be "get it AWAY from me NOW."

I personally do not want to BE perved on, nor do I ever want to be ASSOCIATED IN ANY WAY with perving on another person--ANY PERSON--in a dressing room. That is completely and utterly distasteful to me.

In this context--and I emphasize that, IN THIS CONTEXT--"perving on" someone is not looking at a picture posted for public consumption in a gallery and smiling. In this context, "perving on" someone else is looking at their naked body with non-consensual sexual intent; it is an invasion of their privacy. That kind of sexual invasion is completely and utterly distasteful to me, no matter who does it. I do not want to be associated with it in any way.

[Jett]

Alright then... what was the thread about?

Yeah I really don't have an issue about which dressing room I use... until I read this thread I guess I didn't realize I don't really think about it. But now I'm thinking how it doesn't seem terribly fair that I feel I have the right to use the mens at my leisure... but then would take issue with a run of the mill straight male wanting to use the female rooms.

Though gay women in there obviously doesn't skiv me at all... interesting but it makes sense because I know (for me) it has everything to do with history.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Amelia

I just want to be specific here so I am not misunderstood.

I am not afraid of being assaulted in a bathroom or dressing room by men. I have been sexually assaulted by both male and female genders. I do not think all males are a danger to me, so I hope no one here is thinking that was my point.

I was speaking generally about everyone's privacy and the way society views protecting that privacy by separating genders and not by sexuality. I wasn't speaking about my own privacy as much as I was speaking about addressing the gender separation being FLAWED. .

Can someone please explain why gender separation is flawed? I find it imperative to my safety and comfort to use public fitting rooms and women's bathrooms with multiple stalls without the risk that a man may intrude. I require women's space for the same reasons I have always required it. Those reasons include privacy, but that's only one part of the equation. Do I feel unsafe in closed quarters when men are present? You bet I do. Am I a frail, delicate person who lives in fear? Ha! You would have to have met me to know why that's such an outrageously funny thought.

I live and work in the real world. I work with huge men, often well over 6' tall and very well fed, who congratulate themselves for not having assaulted the women in their lives, ("Hey, I'm a good guy. I never even hit her!"). These men sometimes need to be told that it's not OK to use racial slurs. One fairly large man was recently thrown off the job for assaulting a cleaning woman in the bathroom. Many of us agreed that he would have faced NO REPERCUSSIONS had that happened even as recently as a decade ago. Are these the people that I'm supposed to feel comfortable with in a room where they are exposing their penises and my pants are down? When I hear people in my community calling for erasure of gendered bathrooms I want to ask them whether they're crazy or just naive. My friends who work in academia can theorize about gender from the luxury of their libraries. I don't have that option.

I've heard about and seen men direct their most potent sexual aggression against masculine women. Butches are perceived as gender transgressors and have been the object of violence and sexual violence as a result. I have no trouble imagining some of my co-workers feeling a need to show a trangressively masculine woman that she's still a woman after all, and that he can still violate her. This is one important way in which our female bodies, no matter whether those bodies belong to very feminine or very masculine people, put us at similar risk. I'm mystified about why a masculine, female bodied person would invite the risk of men's sexual aggression by sharing really vulnerable space, such as bathrooms, with them. Am I the only person here who has to deal with male sexual aggression, or is it just so common that no one else feels the need to mention it?

Bathrooms and fitting rooms are traditional common, recognised women's spaces, but there are some other really important venues. For instance, what about girls' and women's sports? If you attempt to erase gender separation from sports you will only erase women from sports. Period. Perhaps this won't be as obvious to anyone who is too young to have played girl's sports, or tried to, in the U.S. before Title 9. Take my word for it. It's better now. Unless a person is born intersexed, a female body no matter how masculine, will be unlikely to be competitive with a male body in most competitive sports. There will always be exceptions. I was competitive with boys when I ran on their track teams before Title 9, but that was very rare. This is another place where we, butch and femme, are the same. Sports are played with bodies. Female bodies are different than male bodies. Like it or not, that's due to naturally occurring physical size and hormones.

So, at the risk of derailing this fine thread, why is gender separation flawed?

[Jess]

Thanks Cheryl for a great point of view. I guess when I was first reading the bathroom/ changing room issue, I was thinking more about the discomfort I feel ( and impose upon) other women in these spaces and not necessarily the discomfort and risk involved in sharing such a private space with men.

I appreciate the chance to remember that yes, I DO feel threatened in vulnerable spaces with men.

There is no easy answer or quick fix. I will just continue the Kegel exercises and try to keep holding it..LOL!

Good to see you posting here!

[BullDog]

Thank you Cheryl and Jess. I feel the same way Jess does. I am usually thinking about comfort level more than danger level, but if I think about it more I do need to be careful. I don't use Mens bathrooms, but I will use a Mens changing room if it's not too crowded and I am feeling ok about it. Otherwise I carry my clothes to the Womens dept.

Anyone can be a good person. Anyone can physically or sexually assault someone. However, the fact of the matter is a majority of these types of crimes are committed by men against women. So it would be naive and dangerous to just all of sudden do away with all gendered public spaces, in my opinion. We need to work on the underlying issues and what is causing people to be potentially unsafe in the first place. I do like unisex for bathrooms that are one stall. That's only feasible for small public spaces.

I also do try and be aware that if someone does mistake me for male (usually only very temporary) that I do what I can to make them feel at ease. If a woman thinks a male is a woman's space the gut reaction might be fear. People definitely have narrow definitions of what a woman or female looks like or is, and it can be hurtful and uncomfortable to us to feel we can't even pee out in public, but women do need to be cautious around males they don't know. If they don't know you and don't know you are a woman/female they are likely to be wary. They have good reason to be.

[Darth Denkay]

I feel infinitely safer in the men's room instead of the women's room. I can't go in a women's room without, at the least, stares and angry looks. More times than not hateful things are said. Now, all of this I could handle. But I've been verbally and physically threatened, pulled out twice by security. The women's room does not feel safe to me.

I have never - and I do mean never - had even a sliver of trouble using the men's room. It seems as though men go in the restroom, do their thing, don't talk or look at anyone, and leave. Women go in and tend to look at others there. Because of the odd phenomenon of women going to the restroom in herds there are often folks hanging around inside waiting for their friends, carrying on conversations. Also, women spend time in there primping and such. It seems as though it's pretty much a guarantee that in the women's room someone will look at me and I will be hassled to some degree while in the men's room no one pays a bit of attention. For me, the men's restroom feels safer than the women's restroom.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I've heard about and seen men direct their most potent sexual aggression against masculine women. Butches are perceived as gender transgressors and have been the object of violence and sexual violence as a result. I have no trouble imagining some of my co-workers feeling a need to show a trangressively masculine woman that she's still a woman after all, and that he can still violate her. This is one important way in which our female bodies, no matter whether those bodies belong to very feminine or very masculine people, put us at similar risk. I'm mystified about why a masculine, female bodied person would invite the risk of men's sexual aggression by sharing really vulnerable space, such as bathrooms, with them. Am I the only person here who has to deal with male sexual aggression, or is it just so common that no one else feels the need to mention it?

[Stoney]

I see alot of this is about changing room restroom stuff but it all got me thinking ..so I hope Im not too far off subject.

for a really long time I honestly felt almost genderless, I mean I weighed over 400 lbs not many people felt comfortable around me
and I was either completely ignored or whispered about... always the same ( is that a man or a woman..??) I think they were wishing I'd choose a bathroom or changing room just to satisfy their curiosity.
Now that I have lost weight it is a lot different, men are either completely rude, and on the defense or they want me to meet their wife....it is kinda creepy.
I forget sometimes that I look different to people now, and I am no longer "invisible"
"visible" Sometimes feels like "vulnerable" and I dont really like that , so I have to sometimes cut back on the friendly smiles and pointless conversations with men who now readily recognize with a double take I am female.

So yeah ,
I have had some issues. I do Identify as female, always have but no body really seemed to notice that much till I lost all this weight.