OSAMA BINLADEN IS DEAD

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Although I agree with the imperial nature the US has played all over the world and it is not something I am proud of- all Western nations have contributed to very disrespectful treatment of various regions and continue to.

While agree Western nations in general contributed, in this case I named the US in particular because of the role that nation has played in the Middle East (and worldwide) over the last few decades. Many other Western nations ride the line of imperialism, though it is no longer as prominent in other Western nations as it is in the US (as far as military action/intervention globally is concerned). I name the US in this instance because most Western powers were outright against the war in Iraq, but on the other hand supported the invasion of Afghanistan so they certainly are not wholely innocent.

What I find different though is the way other nations presented the invasion to the general population vs. the way the American people were addressed. For the Americans it seemed a blatant ideological war (or wars), while there was, as far as I have ever read, never any large degree of popular support for the "war on terror" in nations like Germany and France despite military participation in Afghanistan. I think it was also a media issue, in that there seems to be more diversity in information and perception presented by the media in other nations than the US, where it seems the mainstream media consistantly supported the war for many years (perhaps until recently). I think a big part of the problem is that the actions of the American government and military continue to act as an "us vs. them" issue for many Americans. It should have nothing to do with "othering" other nations and cultures the way many Americans do.

With Osama Bin Laden's death it continues to be presented as an "us vs. them." I have a big issue with that. When he was killed, I'm not sure I saw the British or the Spaniards reacting the same way as the Americans did, and while the death toll was not the same in those two nations, they did suffer attacks by fundamentalists.

PS- I did see your mention on the Western powers involvement in Libya (UN). Sometimes I wonder if a strong multi-country aliance could be built among just people- and have some effect on all of these countries. An internation aliance with an understanding of how we all contribute to these insane acts against other countries. I knmow, I'm an idealist.

Yes, and I do want to make sure people understand that I'm not ignoring the role European powers in particular are playing in Libya now. I am completely against Western involvement in Libya. I am not against people attempting to liberate themselves from oppression, however, I am deeply concerned that Libya is on its way to unseating Qaddafi only to replace him with the Muslim Brotherhood (already looking like they might come into power in Egypt)...which is much, much worse. Swapping one dictator for another makes no difference, whether the deposers latch themselves onto non-extremists attempting to free themselves of a previous dictator or not.

In many respects it feels like Osama and US support for extremist "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan all over again, as though the West needs a new "demon" to fight and is in the process of creating one in Libya.

Overall, I have the same wish you do. I think that with social media like Twitter in particular it will become easier for people around the world to network and organize themselves into a coherent voice and social force more easily without the government middlemen interfering. Maybe that will make a difference, but again that may just be idealism.

As far as an international alliance, it is a pitty that Trotskyism is not as embraced as other forms of communism. I think the Trotskyist/ICL approach to creating that international community (albeit very small) fighting for the people as a whole without borders is excellent. If only it were on a larger scale.

P.S. sorry for snipping up your post

[BullDog]

Ender you make some good points, but all Americans have not reacted to the death of Bin Laden in the same way. You seem to be making some pretty big generalizations there.

[Toughy]

I thought Ender was talking about all those folks that were shown on CNN celebrating. I don't see the gross generalization other do.

Concerning celebrating the death of a mass murderer. Many folks in this country are revenge motivated and that's why they celebrated. Revenge was had........bin Laden shot in the head and dead. It's the same sort of revenge you see in the death penalty. An eye for an eye.....and we all end up blind.

I facilitate a group at the SF VA Medical Center....all veterans with 90% of them having been in combat (from Vietnam, Korea and up to today). I brought up bin Laden. Some folks might think a great cheer went up cuz we got him dead....after all this is a room full of combat warriors who wanted bin Laden dead....some had been in Afghanistan. There was silence and soft spokens words about justice. Someone even said he should have been captured and brought to trial in a US Federal Court .....not a military tribunal. S/he felt a civilian trial with a guilty verdict would in fact strengthen and show the US believes in it's Constitution and the rule of law. It really was basic police work that found him in that compound in Pakistan.

I personally don't think we can wage a war on terror with armies and drones and bombs. Terror is a tactic. To catch the leaders ordering this tactic requires good old fashioned boots on the ground police work. Police work and civilian courts brought justice with the first WTC bomber. I would expect the same thing can be repeated without killing people.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I thought Ender was talking about all those folks that were shown on CNN celebrating. I don't see the gross generalization other do.

Concerning celebrating the death of a mass murderer. Many folks in this country are revenge motivated and that's why they celebrated. Revenge was had........bin Laden shot in the head and dead. It's the same sort of revenge you see in the death penalty. An eye for an eye.....and we all end up blind.

I facilitate a group at the SF VA Medical Center....all veterans with 90% of them having been in combat (from Vietnam, Korea and up to today). I brought up bin Laden. Some folks might think a great cheer went up cuz we got him dead....after all this is a room full of combat warriors who wanted bin Laden dead....some had been in Afghanistan. There was silence and soft spokens words about justice. Someone even said he should have been captured and brought to trial in a US Federal Court .....not a military tribunal. S/he felt a civilian trial with a guilty verdict would in fact strengthen and show the US believes in it's Constitution and the rule of law. It really was basic police work that found him in that compound in Pakistan.

I personally don't think we can wage a war on terror with armies and drones and bombs. Terror is a tactic. To catch the leaders ordering this tactic requires good old fashioned boots on the ground police work. Police work and civilian courts brought justice with the first WTC bomber. I would expect the same thing can be repeated without killing people.

Your post reminds me of many of our Generals (one is Clin Powel's past comments) speaking about war. So many of the docs I have watched that focus on our individual troops in these wars always strike me in much the same way- the deep level of humanity of those that are out there trying to bridge relationships with the people in a country we are in on an everyday basis without shooting up small villages and towns.

Sometimes I see a huge disconnect between those that have been or are in the actual conflict and we at home that have never been there. Yes, I know there are shoot 'em up soldiers, but, so many seem to see how diplomacy would just go farther in bringing positive change- earning trust of the people that are in the middle of so much chaos and that have had any number of agressors throughout time in their backyards.

I view bin Laden as a sociopathic religious zealot with the same kind of charisma as people like Hitler. One like so many that has followers that have such desperate circumstances that I know I cannot begin to understand.