Did the Pakistan government know Osama bin Laden was there?

[Martina]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Detroit seems pretty racist to me not just with Arabs.

There are many Muslim US citizens.

Detroit is as racist as any other U.S. city.

i can say i have never felt seriously out of place in African American neighborhoods in Detroit -- unlike in Boston and Chicago. Detroit is a mess. It is a dying city. But it is amazingly and bizarrely creative. It is not the worst city in America to live in despite what you read in the news. It may be in the worst mess in a number of ways. Racism -- white flight -- is responsible for a great deal of that. But it is not defined by racism or poverty or any of that. In some ways, it is one of my favorite places on earth. i miss it.

By the way -- Detroit has the largest concentration of Arabs outside of the Middle East.

Most of us here do not have a clue what it is like to live in a European city where there is that kind of daily anger and hostility in the air between strangers of different ethnic groups. Rocky is an American living there. My sense is he is fairly shocked by it. He does seem to have taken some of the racist attitudes to heart -- the tax comment. But it's really easy for us to preach when we aren't living it. How many people have lived among Arabs and worked with them daily and lived side by side? i have. And there was no hint of the anger and hostility so common in France and Germany. My friend from Egypt reports the same experience from the other position -- as an Arab immigrant.

Since 911 it has gotten much worse for Arabs living here. But it's still a real life, a life with a future. It is not a life lived as a permanent outsider in your own home. That is true for many Arabs living in France.

i am not here to defend the U.S. re racism or its treatment of immigrants. i teach Latino students, and one of my students is living alone at 17 because her parents got caught in a raid and were deported. She has a kidney condition, and it has been hard to get her medical care. (It happened.) i have no illusions about how little American values people it deems outsiders. But i also know that the facts are that it is a different experience to live in European cities. There is a lot of intepersonal hostility. Much more of an effort by the nations themselves to disenfranchise even the native born children of immigrants. It's just a fact, not a defense of U.S. culture or policy.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Martina

Most of us here do not have a clue what it is like to live in a European city where there is that kind of daily anger and hostility in the air between strangers of different ethnic groups. Rocky is an American living there. My sense is he is fairly shocked by it. He does seem to have taken some of the racist attitudes to heart -- the tax comment. But it's really easy for us to preach when we aren't living it. How many people have lived among Arabs and worked with them daily and lived side by side? i have. And there was no hint of the anger and hostility so common in France and Germany. My friend from Egypt reports the same experience from the other position -- as an Arab immigrant.

Since 911 it has gotten much worse for Arabs living here. But it's still a real life, a life with a future. It is not a life lived as a permanent outsider in your own home. That is true for many Arabs living in France.

I think this post is a bit extreme when it comes to portraying the life of immigrants as a whole in Western and Central Europe (Eastern Europe is a different matter altogether) in comparison to what they face in North America, particularly where you describe daily anger and hostility. I am both a Canadian and European citizen and have lived in Bavaria, one of the more conservative regions of Germany (though when you compare it to the conservatism I've witnessed in North America, it's not really comparable) and found that the experiences of the many immigrants I knew there were pretty diverse.

At one point I worked at a small café where I worked and lived along side a Polish woman and a Slovenian woman. One was my age (20/21 at the time) and the other a few years older. Both women had been migrant workers at this same place for a few years before I got there, and were doing it to make money to bring back home. They were being exploited as much as any migrant worker in North America is.

At the same time I was acquainted with a Bulgarian guy also in his 20's who had started off a migrant worker, but eventually came to own his own internet café/movie rental place and was going to school as well. There is still stigma toward Eastern Europeans in Germany because of German/Polish history in particular, which is slowly but surely changing. And that is the issue primary issue in Europe: centuries of history. And that is one issue that straints German/Turkish relations, the history of both nations during the last century, as well as foreign (particularly American) intervention in Turkish/German relations throughout the last century.

On the other hand, I was friends with a Peruvian guy who moved to Germany for a better life since his father lived there, but his father ended up refusing to help him out in getting started, so he had to learn German on his own and found it hard to get out of low wage restaurant jobs. Whereas a Brazilian guy I was acquainted with came to Germany on a visa and within four years was working for the Volksbank. It all depends.

But the stigma toward these migrant workers and their situation and opportunties are not really different from what migrant workers face in the US and, increasing more recently with our wonderful PM, Canada. Also, I think the public is more aware of the plight of migrant workers in Germany than in Canada, for example, which is one of the positives about Germany: generally more socio-political awareness and activism.

When comparing the lives of migrant workers and the opportunities available to them with those of German-born youth of Turkish or other non-German ethnicities, I would say that the latter have far more opportunities. Certainly it was extremely difficult for their parents and the older generations who did not have citizenship as a whole and who faced a lot of discrimination, but for young people things are much easier and they are far more accepted in German society than their parents were, probably because the attitudes of young Germans have also changed a lot over the years.

I think part of it has to do with how the education and health care systems function in Germany, the Benelux and Northern Europe. As citizens they have the same access to universal health care and cheap to free post-secondary education (and as time goes on, more and more gain access to it by finishing secondary school), which provides them with better futures regardless of the socio-economic standing their parents held. I'd say in that respect they have more available to them than many North Americans. Older immigrant generations have a tendency to either alienate themselves or be alienated in society, in a similar way that many older immigrant groups in North America do, whereas their children typically feel as much a citizen as anyone else (unless it's the World Cup ). On that topic, the prominence of German-born athletes of Turkish descent has probably helped things over the years. Footballers like Mesul Özl and Hamut Altintop, or half-German half-Spanish footballers like Mario Gomez are as beloved as other football stars of ethnic German descent. Just look at the way both Özl and Müller were equally praised rookies for their performances. Then compare them to Eastern Europeans playing for German teams...there are not many, and those who do are usually of German descent/Germans that immigrated to the East in past centuries and either expulsed during the Soviet years or returning after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

I'm not aware of efforts by the government to disenfranchise German-born youth of Turkish descent, but feel free to go into detail. There was the problem over a decade ago with gaining German citizenship (requiring at least one German parent even if the child of immigrants was born in German), but that was changed a while ago so that the children of immigrants gain citizenship.

That isn't to say there aren't some people who are hostile towards Turks or Germans of Turkish descent...but whether it is "worse" than in North America is rather debatable. Comparing the treatment of Turkish migrant workers to Mexican and Central/South American migrant workers or migrant workers anywhere there is not much difference. In my opinion what you've written is an exaggeration of the hostility of the average German towards those of Turkish descent.

If you want to talk about systematic discrimination against a given group, the Roma are a far better example...very similar to how First Nations peoples are treated throughout North and South America, except that because the Roma have no "claim to the land" the way First Nations do, they are frequently deported and berated.

If I were to rate German acceptance of those of foreign descent it would be less accepting than Canadian or Dutch urban areas, but generally more tolerant than what I've seen expressed by many American news sources and from what I've experienced as far as many (not all) American sentiments towards the "unAmerican." When it comes to public and media response to the "threat of terrorism" it was far less frantic, paranoid and prejudice than the American media like CNN and Fox...that much was fairly evident. I would also add that I see Germans and the German government as more accepting than France in general.

But there is still probably more distrust of Eastern European Slavs and Roma than other groups, I would say.

[EnderD_503]

I also wanted to note that when discussing Europe it's important to distinguish which laws affect which nations. France banned the niqab, but this was not an EU-wide ban by any means. Québec did so as well in certain public spheres.

Before that there was outrage that they were banned from schools, but all religious clothing/symbols are banned from French schools (including Christian crosses). Secularism is a prominent part of French culture, and on the one hand I can see the concerns raised by some in French society over the discrimination of women that demands women wear burqas or niqabs.

Personally, I outright oppose the ban, not because of issues of "religious freedom," (admittedly I view religion as a largely oppressive force) but simply because it only perpetuates the alienation of victims rather than educating them and punishing their oppressors, and those women will be less likely to educate themselves or gain employment. The ban attacks the symptom instead of the cause. Secularism must be the result of education in the case of remnants of oppressive religious-based traditions.

Interesting article on the mixed views throughout the Muslim community:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...overnment.html

[Martina]

i am basing it mostly on what Arabs have told me about living France and to a lesser degree on a series of articles i read in the Times a while ago. Films too --- showing harrassment in schools. i read a lot about France. i haven't been in years, and i have only been as a tourist. i have never lived there. God, i have read and heard about Arab families, admittedly from North Africa, who three generations later are not much more integrated into French society than their parents. Arabs in Detroit are diverse, but most are more educated than many of the immigrants to France have historically been. So that explains some differences.

i was thinking about the one parent has to be German issue you mentioned. i guess that was longer ago than i realized.

i think if you talk to ordinary Americans about difference you get a view that may not agree with the impression you get if you live among them. People aren't educated. They are prejudiced and often racist.

How they treat their neighbors often does not always reflect that. And that is what i have seen in Detroit, particularly in East Dearborn.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Martina

i am basing it mostly on what Arabs have told me about living France and to a lesser degree on a series of articles i read in the Times a while ago. Films too --- showing harrassment in schools. i read a lot about France. i haven't been in years, and i have only been as a tourist. i have never lived there. God, i have read and heard about Arab families, admittedly from North Africa, who three generations later are not much more integrated into French society than their parents. Arabs in Detroit are diverse, but most are more educated than many of the immigrants to France have historically been. So that explains some differences.

Yeah, France is a bit of a different issue, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Martina

i was thinking about the one parent has to be German issue you mentioned. i guess that was longer ago than i realized.

I think they changed that in 2000. Now anyone born in Germany automatically receives German citizenship regardless of their parents nationalities. Also, residents not born in Germany can apply for citizenship after residing there for 6-7 years if I remember right, but unless they have a German parent they cannot hold dual citizenship so it requires that they give up their previous citizenship.

[BullDog]

Obama said during the 2008 presidential campaign that if Pakistan was unable or unwilling to get Bin Laden that we should go in there and get him. He fulfilled the promise he made. They did it as efficiently as possible. We could have had McCain running the ship instead.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Obama said during the 2008 presidential campaign that if Pakistan was unable or unwilling to get Bin Laden that we should go in there and get him. He fulfilled the promise he made. They did it as efficiently as possible. We could have had McCain running the ship instead.

Personally, I have a hard time with assassinations, period- and that has been part of my somberness and struggle with this. There is also the dimensions of being closer to the NYC 9/11 attacks wearing on me. My first choice would have been to take him alive and try him not only in the US, but in all countries he had a hand in terrorist murders. I honestly don’t want this to lead to more suck “operations.”

I agree with what you say here in terms of the "warning" and something I have been thinking about is that bin Laden knew full well he was a marked man, yet, he had his wives and kids with him! Says quite a bit about his fanatical narcissism as well as how he felt about women. Also, his cultural make up.

I believe that most of us would "hide" without our loved ones with us. Although, my guess is that women/wives were only around for sex, having his kids (hopefully sons) and to wait non him. Sons were to be with him to learn his philosophy and become warriors for the "cause."

I don't know the ages of all of the children that were there. And I am appalled that a parent would expose them to such danger. Parents (as well as spouses) are supposed to protect loved ones. Then again, I know I am worlds apart from this man culturally. Not even close in terms of these kinds of values.

[BullDog]

I would have preferred him to be taken alive as well, but I am not sure how feasible that was without him surrendering willingly. I see things being run much differently under Obama than they were previously or would have been under McCain. I don't see this as revenge. I see it as a demonstration of at least partial competence in dealing with a terrorist leader- that our Intelligence, Commander In Chief/President and Military worked in unison to get the job done. It wasn't perfect. There are no easy solutions to difficult problems. We could have not pursued him, but I am not sure what good that would do. For those critical of what has taken place I am wondering what they would do instead.

[rockybcn]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Personally, I have a hard time with assassinations, period- and that has been part of my somberness and struggle with this. There is also the dimensions of being closer to the NYC 9/11 attacks wearing on me. My first choice would have been to take him alive and try him not only in the US, but in all countries he had a hand in terrorist murders. I honestly don’t want this to lead to more suck “operations.”

I agree with what you say here in terms of the "warning" and something I have been thinking about is that bin Laden knew full well he was a marked man, yet, he had his wives and kids with him! Says quite a bit about his fanatical narcissism as well as how he felt about women. Also, his cultural make up.

I believe that most of us would "hide" without our loved ones with us. Although, my guess is that women/wives were only around for sex, having his kids (hopefully sons) and to wait non him. Sons were to be with him to learn his philosophy and become warriors for the "cause."

I don't know the ages of all of the children that were there. And I am appalled that a parent would expose them to such danger. Parents (as well as spouses) are supposed to protect loved ones. Then again, I know I am worlds apart from this man culturally. Not even close in terms of these kinds of values.

We live in a country (USA) where we have certain freedoms and privileges. We dont always understand the mindset of what other cultures and religions uphold as more important. We have generations of people that were forced to marry or in prearranged marriages because it was necessary for financial or religious reasons. We now have the luxury of choosing our lifemates because we fall in love or we want someone to provide us a good lifestyle,or for whatever our reasons...it is ours to choose. I got to know a Pakistani man here in my barrio that I respect completely. His marriage was prearranged and he just had his 3rd child last year. He has been married to his wife for 15 years. He showed me pictures of the family and he appeared proud of his children. I asked him about his prearranged marriage and having been with his wife that long I asked him when he had fallen in love with her. He looked at me strangely and said...."I dont know about love,I have no feelings that way. When I go home to visit my family every two years, I have my own private quarters in the house. I am there to have my needs taken care of and see to it that the children will one day be the providers of the family." The families all live together in one huge home,brothers and their wives and children,parents,grandparents. It is the duty of the first born son to provide for the whole extended family. Ali is the third born son,he had to take on this responsibility because the first and second son were both handicapped. But he takes it with great pride. He has spent more time away from his family than with. So I guess its like that old song of Tina Turner...Whats love got to do with it? Bin Laden, I am sure knew he would meet his maker sooner rather than later... and what better way to show his family the greatest reward than the afterlife, with him....the martyr. Maybe this was the only way he knew for showing his family a love greater than anything he was capable of giving?