Did the Pakistan government know Osama bin Laden was there?

Martina · 05-06-2011, 07:48 PM

i am basing it mostly on what Arabs have told me about living France and to a lesser degree on a series of articles i read in the Times a while ago. Films too --- showing harrassment in schools. i read a lot about France. i haven't been in years, and i have only been as a tourist. i have never lived there. God, i have read and heard about Arab families, admittedly from North Africa, who three generations later are not much more integrated into French society than their parents. Arabs in Detroit are diverse, but most are more educated than many of the immigrants to France have historically been. So that explains some differences.

i was thinking about the one parent has to be German issue you mentioned. i guess that was longer ago than i realized.

i think if you talk to ordinary Americans about difference you get a view that may not agree with the impression you get if you live among them. People aren't educated. They are prejudiced and often racist.

How they treat their neighbors often does not always reflect that. And that is what i have seen in Detroit, particularly in East Dearborn.

EnderD_503 · 05-06-2011, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina

i am basing it mostly on what Arabs have told me about living France and to a lesser degree on a series of articles i read in the Times a while ago. Films too --- showing harrassment in schools. i read a lot about France. i haven't been in years, and i have only been as a tourist. i have never lived there. God, i have read and heard about Arab families, admittedly from North Africa, who three generations later are not much more integrated into French society than their parents. Arabs in Detroit are diverse, but most are more educated than many of the immigrants to France have historically been. So that explains some differences.

Yeah, France is a bit of a different issue, unfortunately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina

i was thinking about the one parent has to be German issue you mentioned. i guess that was longer ago than i realized.

I think they changed that in 2000. Now anyone born in Germany automatically receives German citizenship regardless of their parents nationalities. Also, residents not born in Germany can apply for citizenship after residing there for 6-7 years if I remember right, but unless they have a German parent they cannot hold dual citizenship so it requires that they give up their previous citizenship.

BullDog · 05-06-2011, 10:54 PM

Obama said during the 2008 presidential campaign that if Pakistan was unable or unwilling to get Bin Laden that we should go in there and get him. He fulfilled the promise he made. They did it as efficiently as possible. We could have had McCain running the ship instead.

AtLast · 05-07-2011, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

Obama said during the 2008 presidential campaign that if Pakistan was unable or unwilling to get Bin Laden that we should go in there and get him. He fulfilled the promise he made. They did it as efficiently as possible. We could have had McCain running the ship instead.

Personally, I have a hard time with assassinations, period- and that has been part of my somberness and struggle with this. There is also the dimensions of being closer to the NYC 9/11 attacks wearing on me. My first choice would have been to take him alive and try him not only in the US, but in all countries he had a hand in terrorist murders. I honestly don’t want this to lead to more suck “operations.”

I agree with what you say here in terms of the "warning" and something I have been thinking about is that bin Laden knew full well he was a marked man, yet, he had his wives and kids with him! Says quite a bit about his fanatical narcissism as well as how he felt about women. Also, his cultural make up.

I believe that most of us would "hide" without our loved ones with us. Although, my guess is that women/wives were only around for sex, having his kids (hopefully sons) and to wait non him. Sons were to be with him to learn his philosophy and become warriors for the "cause."

I don't know the ages of all of the children that were there. And I am appalled that a parent would expose them to such danger. Parents (as well as spouses) are supposed to protect loved ones. Then again, I know I am worlds apart from this man culturally. Not even close in terms of these kinds of values.

BullDog · 05-07-2011, 01:34 AM

I would have preferred him to be taken alive as well, but I am not sure how feasible that was without him surrendering willingly. I see things being run much differently under Obama than they were previously or would have been under McCain. I don't see this as revenge. I see it as a demonstration of at least partial competence in dealing with a terrorist leader- that our Intelligence, Commander In Chief/President and Military worked in unison to get the job done. It wasn't perfect. There are no easy solutions to difficult problems. We could have not pursued him, but I am not sure what good that would do. For those critical of what has taken place I am wondering what they would do instead.

rockybcn · 05-07-2011, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Personally, I have a hard time with assassinations, period- and that has been part of my somberness and struggle with this. There is also the dimensions of being closer to the NYC 9/11 attacks wearing on me. My first choice would have been to take him alive and try him not only in the US, but in all countries he had a hand in terrorist murders. I honestly don’t want this to lead to more suck “operations.”

I agree with what you say here in terms of the "warning" and something I have been thinking about is that bin Laden knew full well he was a marked man, yet, he had his wives and kids with him! Says quite a bit about his fanatical narcissism as well as how he felt about women. Also, his cultural make up.

I believe that most of us would "hide" without our loved ones with us. Although, my guess is that women/wives were only around for sex, having his kids (hopefully sons) and to wait non him. Sons were to be with him to learn his philosophy and become warriors for the "cause."

I don't know the ages of all of the children that were there. And I am appalled that a parent would expose them to such danger. Parents (as well as spouses) are supposed to protect loved ones. Then again, I know I am worlds apart from this man culturally. Not even close in terms of these kinds of values.

We live in a country (USA) where we have certain freedoms and privileges. We dont always understand the mindset of what other cultures and religions uphold as more important. We have generations of people that were forced to marry or in prearranged marriages because it was necessary for financial or religious reasons. We now have the luxury of choosing our lifemates because we fall in love or we want someone to provide us a good lifestyle,or for whatever our reasons...it is ours to choose. I got to know a Pakistani man here in my barrio that I respect completely. His marriage was prearranged and he just had his 3rd child last year. He has been married to his wife for 15 years. He showed me pictures of the family and he appeared proud of his children. I asked him about his prearranged marriage and having been with his wife that long I asked him when he had fallen in love with her. He looked at me strangely and said...."I dont know about love,I have no feelings that way. When I go home to visit my family every two years, I have my own private quarters in the house. I am there to have my needs taken care of and see to it that the children will one day be the providers of the family." The families all live together in one huge home,brothers and their wives and children,parents,grandparents. It is the duty of the first born son to provide for the whole extended family. Ali is the third born son,he had to take on this responsibility because the first and second son were both handicapped. But he takes it with great pride. He has spent more time away from his family than with. So I guess its like that old song of Tina Turner...Whats love got to do with it? Bin Laden, I am sure knew he would meet his maker sooner rather than later... and what better way to show his family the greatest reward than the afterlife, with him....the martyr. Maybe this was the only way he knew for showing his family a love greater than anything he was capable of giving?

Martina · 05-07-2011, 02:55 AM

We don't know anything about his relationships. Assuming it was exploitative reads like cultural stereotyping.

Chancie · 05-07-2011, 05:57 AM

I find the posting of this thread to be completely shit stirring.

I know that many people, all over the world, are fascinated by recent events,

And I know that there are members here who follow serious news,

What interest is served by a question that is deliberately written to incite controversial stand taking?

I just turned 50, and apparently I'm taking a public stand against folks inciting drama.

View Poll Results: Did the Pakistan government (or military) know Osama bin Laden was there?
Yes, I believe Pakistani officials of some kind knew (please explain):	57	78.08%
No, I don't believe Pakistani officials knew (please explain);	2	2.74%
I am not sure (please explain):	3	4.11%
I believe private Pakistani citizens knew and helped him set up his "safe house."	11	15.07%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

05-06-2011, 10:54 PM	#3
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,653 Times in 4,464 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Obama said during the 2008 presidential campaign that if Pakistan was unable or unwilling to get Bin Laden that we should go in there and get him. He fulfilled the promise he made. They did it as efficiently as possible. We could have had McCain running the ship instead. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

05-07-2011, 01:34 AM	#5
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,653 Times in 4,464 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I would have preferred him to be taken alive as well, but I am not sure how feasible that was without him surrendering willingly. I see things being run much differently under Obama than they were previously or would have been under McCain. I don't see this as revenge. I see it as a demonstration of at least partial competence in dealing with a terrorist leader- that our Intelligence, Commander In Chief/President and Military worked in unison to get the job done. It wasn't perfect. There are no easy solutions to difficult problems. We could have not pursued him, but I am not sure what good that would do. For those critical of what has taken place I am wondering what they would do instead. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

05-06-2011, 07:48 PM	#1
Martina Senior Member How Do You Identify?: * Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: * Posts: 4,999 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,409 Thanked 18,285 Times in 4,167 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	i am basing it mostly on what Arabs have told me about living France and to a lesser degree on a series of articles i read in the Times a while ago. Films too --- showing harrassment in schools. i read a lot about France. i haven't been in years, and i have only been as a tourist. i have never lived there. God, i have read and heard about Arab families, admittedly from North Africa, who three generations later are not much more integrated into French society than their parents. Arabs in Detroit are diverse, but most are more educated than many of the immigrants to France have historically been. So that explains some differences. i was thinking about the one parent has to be German issue you mentioned. i guess that was longer ago than i realized. i think if you talk to ordinary Americans about difference you get a view that may not agree with the impression you get if you live among them. People aren't educated. They are prejudiced and often racist. How they treat their neighbors often does not always reflect that. And that is what i have seen in Detroit, particularly in East Dearborn.

05-07-2011, 02:55 AM	#7
Martina Senior Member How Do You Identify?: * Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: * Posts: 4,999 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,409 Thanked 18,285 Times in 4,167 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	We don't know anything about his relationships. Assuming it was exploitative reads like cultural stereotyping.

05-07-2011, 05:57 AM	#8
Chancie Senior Member How Do You Identify?: queer femme-inist Relationship Status: I'm lucky. Join Date: May 2010 Location: Western Mass Posts: 3,774 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,518 Thanked 14,541 Times in 2,744 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	I find the posting of this thread to be completely shit stirring. I know that many people, all over the world, are fascinated by recent events, And I know that there are members here who follow serious news, What interest is served by a question that is deliberately written to incite controversial stand taking? I just turned 50, and apparently I'm taking a public stand against folks inciting drama.