I am... and I prefer the term...

[BullDog]

I do realize the conversation has been more heavily weighted towards identity than which terms are preferred and this is frustrating to some people. However, I actually do think there is a reason this is occurring.

I think one of the reasons why so many queers have issues with the terms cisgender and cissexed is because many of us don't believe our gender and sex and the relationship between the two is all that clear cut or straight forward. I believe that's one of the reasons why we have so many different identities and why they aren't so easy to classify. So when it is suggested that our sex or gender is in alignment with what is socially acceptable many of us chafe at that idea.

As to polls, Linus tried to start one on religion and even after he maxxed out people still were coming up with more. There was also a little scuffle on whether or not Catholics were considered Christians. Oh and I was one of the pain in the ass people asking whether mustard could be considered a sandwich spread (as opposed to Sandwich Spread) in the great Mayo-Miracle Whip debate. Queers can be a pain in the ass.

[Martina]

i am femme, and i use cisgendered or cismale or cisfemale because Dylan basically talked me into, it thread after thread. i was convinced that while there is a spectrum of discomfort with assigned gender, at some point there is a difference between those of us who can live with the loose fit of how we experience ourselves and the gender category assigned to us and those who never could and never will be able to.

[Rockinonahigh]

Ive sorta read thrue this thred and im more confused that when I started.So in that light I will say that im osof stone butch who over the years have mellowed out about all this labeling buisness..if the shoe fits wear it with pride as well as being all who u want to be in your life.Remember life changes,I am a testimonial to that.I agree with Mr.Day on so many levals...right on.

[julieisafemme]

I agree with Martina. I have never in all my years experienced a moment of dysphoria or confusion regarding my body and my internal experience of gender. The binary is bad if it is the only thing used to define gender. BUT some people do fit into that binary in a gender sense. I am as cissexed and cisgendered as you can get! This became even more clear to me in talking to my partner about his experience of his gender as a child. My queerness is directly related to who I want to partner with. That is the only way I break the expected behavior for my gender really. I meet the societal expectations of my gender as well. I see it like this:

Do you feel aligned with your biological sex and your assigned gender?

Do you also, for the most part, meet the societal expectations of that gender?

If so, you could be cisgendered.

Bulldog I know you might agree with the first question but would not agree with the second. So it makes sense to me that you not define yourself as cisgendered/sexed. But can you see based on my questions and my answers of yes to both that the term fits quite well for me? It is very specific in how it differentiates my experience of gender from that of my partner's. That is why I like it so much.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I agree with Martina. I have never in all my years experienced a moment of dysphoria or confusion regarding my body and my internal experience of gender. The binary is bad if it is the only thing used to define gender. BUT some people do fit into that binary in a gender sense. I am as cissexed and cisgendered as you can get! This became even more clear to me in talking to my partner about his experience of his gender as a child. My queerness is directly related to who I want to partner with. That is the only way I break the expected behavior for my gender really. I meet the societal expectations of my gender as well. I see it like this:

Do you feel aligned with your biological sex and your assigned gender?

Do you also, for the most part, meet the societal expectations of that gender?

If so, you could be cisgendered.

Bulldog I know you might agree with the first question but would not agree with the second. So it makes sense to me that you not define yourself as cisgendered/sexed. But can you see based on my questions and my answers of yes to both that the term fits quite well for me? It is very specific in how it differentiates my experience of gender from that of my partner's. That is why I like it so much.

Do you feel aligned with your biological sex and your assigned gender?

I feel I am a female and woman, but no I am not aligned in the way I was assigned to it by my society and culture. I have done my own self alignment.

If the terms fit for you then of course I respect your opinion of yourself and your life experiences.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Do you feel aligned with your biological sex and your assigned gender?

I feel I am a female and woman, but no I am not aligned in the way I was assigned to it by my society and culture. I have done my own self alignment.

If the terms fit for you then of course I respect your opinion of yourself and your life experiences.

Ok that makes sense. So is it the societal expectations of how women are supposed to behave that you don't align with? That is the second part of the question and I, based on what you have posted, did not think that was true for you. I guess what I am trying to understand is that absent of societal expectations of how you should behave as a woman, do you feel aligned with your body and your internal sense of gender? Even if you do you still don't have to accept or use cisgender!! I am just asking.

The other reason I like the term is that it brought out the privilege that I experience in not having ever experienced gender dysphoria or going against what society expects of my gender. It was something I had never thought about or was aware of. I know this is just my experience and there are many people who are aware of this. I remember in another thread about this Heart said that as a feminist she has been contemplating her gender for a long time.

[Toughy]

societal expectations of how you should behave as a woman

I think that depends on what society/culture you were born to even within the US.

I come from the desert southwest (southeast new mexico). Women wore pants, worked along side men on the farm/ranch. The rule of thumb is: 'the butcher she looks, the more likely she is straight'. The expectation from farm/ranch culture was that women could and should be able to do what men did. And men should be able to do what women did. I was not raised with 'women's roles' and 'men's roles'. I was in for a hella shock when I went to college and ran into this other idea about women.

That is not to say I did not understand I was different. I knew I was not like other girls/women..........even the butch looking ones. I was entirely insecure in the girl-boy stuff. My first crushes were on girls even tho I could not articulate that crush. But I did know it was different and I was different.

So it's a mixed bag for me............but don't call me cis-sexed and/or cis-gendered.

I think the really confusing part is how 'gender' and 'sex' are interchangeable except when they are not.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Ok that makes sense. So is it the societal expectations of how women are supposed to behave that you don't align with? That is the second part of the question and I, based on what you have posted, did not think that was true for you. I guess what I am trying to understand is that absent of societal expectations of how you should behave as a woman, do you feel aligned with your body and your internal sense of gender? Even if you do you still don't have to accept or use cisgender!! I am just asking.

The other reason I like the term is that it brought out the privilege that I experience in not having ever experienced gender dysphoria or going against what society expects of my gender. It was something I had never thought about or was aware of. I know this is just my experience and there are many people who are aware of this. I remember in another thread about this Heart said that as a feminist she has been contemplating her gender for a long time.

I am not sure how you can separate the two questions out. Our internal sense of self is still influenced by the culture and society we grow up in. We learn what it means to become female and woman by growing up and what we are being taught. I also do agree with Toughy that it can vary depending on where you grow up and also your family and other factors in terms of how your understanding develops in terms of what it means to be a woman, female etc.

When I was a child I wanted to be a boy. I had crushes on little girls and liked boys things way more than girls. I remember when my little girl friends would invite me over to play barbies and I would be bored to tears. I would rather be outside playing sports, riding my bike, reading a book, anything but play with dolls. I hated wearing dresses. I don't remember wanting to have a male body necessarily, but I did want to be a boy. I was a tomboy and this worked pretty well for me until adolescence. Then when I was in my teens I discovered what a lesbian was and it clicked for me and I didn't want to be a boy anymore.

My sense of my female body is much different than what I have been taught. I do feel my butch cock is an extension of myself and my ideal chest would not involve breasts. So I have made adjustments in my mind to align myself. Perhaps I will some day have chest surgery or perhaps not. I do not pack most of the time. I don't need to. My butch cock is there whether I am wearing it or not.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Ok that makes sense. So is it the societal expectations of how women are supposed to behave that you don't align with? That is the second part of the question and I, based on what you have posted, did not think that was true for you. I guess what I am trying to understand is that absent of societal expectations of how you should behave as a woman, do you feel aligned with your body and your internal sense of gender? Even if you do you still don't have to accept or use cisgender!! I am just asking.

The other reason I like the term is that it brought out the privilege that I experience in not having ever experienced gender dysphoria or going against what society expects of my gender. It was something I had never thought about or was aware of. I know this is just my experience and there are many people who are aware of this. I remember in another thread about this Heart said that as a feminist she has been contemplating her gender for a long time.

That probably comes being active during the Second Wave as the movement questioned the binary. This kicked in severly as the Gay Rights movement began as a related offshoot. And that could be why and how feminism was rejected by middle and upper middle-class (mainly, white) women that did fall within the range of what was considered "normal" for women- wife & mother. Tragic, really. But, what I am stating here is my personal feelings really having been an activist during that time. Heart will have to address this.

When I look back, I may not have had the terminology, but in the midst of questioning my sexuality, I questioned my gender. I never felt that I was male, but I sure knew I wasn't "of the norm" as a woman and a female and that heterosexuality (then, bi-sexuality) just wasn't who I was. Even in the kind of culture I was living in early on (the "mountain town"). For me, sexuality and gender identity was intermingled for a very long time.

Consequently, cis-gendered or cis-sexed doesn't work for me as an individual. However, I can see where it does for many people. Something else that has never fit is putting down women that do fit into the binary. It seems like not just a few femmes have been subjected to down right cruelty due to that kind of thinking because they may "appear" to fit the stereotype of the binary feminine or woman/female.

All in all- Queer seems to be the best fitting term for what I feel internally and about myself externally. But, I see the cis-gender/sexed theories can have a positive impact on society. We just have to get out of the confines of the binary system as it has stood for so long. Mainly, I want for all of us to be accepted as we are.

[AtLast]

snip-

[QUOTE=BullDog;344115]

I think one of the reasons why so many queers have issues with the terms cisgender and cissexed is because many of us don't believe our gender and sex and the relationship between the two is all that clear cut or straight forward. I believe that's one of the reasons why we have so many different identities and why they aren't so easy to classify. So when it is suggested that our sex or gender is in alignment with what is socially acceptable many of us chafe at that idea.

QUOTE] snip

No, it isn't for me at all- not clear-cut. Not even close. That is why it is important to be open to new data and theory that finally takes into consideration how gender and sex is very complex.

When I talk with my intergendered cousin and her experiences throughout her 70 plus years- I am completely humbled when it comes to this entire topic.