Pressurised to transition.

[hpychick]

juliesafemme,

I'm not sure why you felt the need to call me out without understanding what I meant. I asked a question.

What I didn't ask for was your snarky comment, which incidentally, you could have done privately, and saved yourself some embarrassment. Oddly, not everyone comes from the same place of negativity as you.

That is all.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am not sure why you felt the need to post this? This is an interesting and serious thread and if you want to make fun of someone's choice of words maybe you could have done it privately.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by hpychick

juliesafemme,

I'm not sure why you felt the need to call me out without understanding what I meant. I asked a question.

What I didn't ask for was your snarky comment, which incidentally, you could have done privately, and saved yourself some embarrassment. Oddly, not everyone comes from the same place of negativity as you.

That is all.

Hpychick. I am sorry I misunderstood your comment.

I did not do it privately because I thought what I interpreted as your public snark needed to be addressed publicly. I did not understand your comment to be a serious or genuine question. The little zombie face is what made me think you were poking fun.

I do apologize for upsetting you.

[hpychick]

julieisafemme,

I appreciate how protective you are here in such a personal space. I apologize for being reactionary and defensive, and also for saying that you were coming from a place of negativity.

I am far from perfect, and often misinterpret things for whatever reason. Nonetheless, I was rude to you and that's really not part of my typical character.

Thank you for the apology; I hope that you will also accept mine.

Sunny

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Hpychick. I am sorry I misunderstood your comment.

I did not do it privately because I thought what I interpreted as your public snark needed to be addressed publicly. I did not understand your comment to be a serious or genuine question. The little zombie face is what made me think you were poking fun.

I do apologize for upsetting you.

[Heart]

Why bring in polls and statistics? Feeling pressured to transition may not come directly from transmen, it may come from femmes, the environment, the culture, from within oneself, etc. Heck, I remember reading an article about some country (can't remember which) supporting transition as long as it resulted in heterosexuality. Some here have stated they felt pressured, some haven't. This isn't a research project. There's nothing to prove or disprove. It's about people sharing subjective personal experiences, no?

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Heart

Why bring in polls and statistics? Feeling pressured to transition may not come directly from transmen, it may come from femmes, the environment, the culture, from within oneself, etc. Heck, I remember reading an article about some country (can't remember which) supporting transition as long as it resulted in heterosexuality. Some here have stated they felt pressured, some haven't. This isn't a research project. There's nothing to prove or disprove. It's about people sharing subjective personal experiences, no?

Iran provides gender reassignment treatment and surgery to gay people because it turns them into straight people.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Heart

Why bring in polls and statistics? Feeling pressured to transition may not come directly from transmen, it may come from femmes, the environment, the culture, from within oneself, etc. Heck, I remember reading an article about some country (can't remember which) supporting transition as long as it resulted in heterosexuality. Some here have stated they felt pressured, some haven't. This isn't a research project. There's nothing to prove or disprove. It's about people sharing subjective personal experiences, no?

I think statistics are important when someone uses phrases such as, "a lot of butches going through surgery of some kind to be happier in their skin" or "from what I have seen it feels like butches are decreasing and transguys are increasing," because while that may be how someone perceives reality, that does not make it true. In the past, I have seen this type of language develop into alarm and devisivness, and I would hope that people understand the distinction between what a person feels they are observing and what truly is. I think there is room in this thread for butches to share their feelings as well as reflect upon the validity of their observations.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Liam

I think there is room in this thread for butches to share their feelings as well as reflect upon the validity of their observations.

Actually, I don't personally think, in this thread, that butches need to reflect upon the "validity" of their feelings or observations when it comes to discussing their own experiences of feeling pressure around transition.

Heart

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Liam

I think statistics are important when someone uses phrases such as, "a lot of butches going through surgery of some kind to be happier in their skin" or "from what I have seen it feels like butches are decreasing and transguys are increasing," because while that may be how someone perceives reality, that does not make it true. In the past, I have seen this type of language develop into alarm and devisivness, and I would hope that people understand the distinction between what a person feels they are observing and what truly is. I think there is room in this thread for butches to share their feelings as well as reflect upon the validity of their observations.

I understand why you would want to explore these statements and yes, let us not go to past places of alarm and divisiveness. That has never been a good thing.

The point Heart makes is valid in terms of the thread being for butches to discuss this within our own zone in relationship to feelings we may have experienced. No, feelings don't make something true in terms of any faulty thinking there might be about numbers of transgendered people here or butches. But someone’s feelings/emotional experiences are valid for each and every one of us- including trans members.

Liam, there are things that need to be talked about among butches in this realm so that "myth" or false assumptions are brought out. Even though I have never felt pressure to transition by trans guys (although I did cite instances in which I have been by femmes I dated), I have no idea if this is true for other butches. And if they have been- how can we deal with this?

To be honest, I would think that trans guys would be very cautious about influencing a butch to transition- it isn't some boom-bam journey without many obstacles and difficult situations to deal with- from family, possibly a partner, friends to all the medical procedures. And it takes years. You know this very well due to your own experience and journey. However, you are a mature, thoughtful, bright guy that didn't just up and decide to transition. There could be much younger, less mature trans guys that might still be in that time of life when peer pressure is just the mode of operation. Also, there are so many differing experiences that trans guys I have known throughout nearly 40 years now that I have never put any generality to their transitioning processes- so individual.

There have been quite a few Transmen as well as femmes giving their input in this thread that have been really positive for me to read and think about. I don't want the thread to disintegrate either, and as a person that will not put up with transphobic or stereotypes of transpeople, I will call out anyone that goes there. I guess it is hard to trust this in a thread by and for butches to discuss this topic, but I really need your trust (trans guys here) to do the right thing in terms of any unfair or misinformation that might get posted.

Also, I would always recommend that someone ask questions they might be struggling with in the Ask a Transperson thread because I believe they would be able to get good information from those that are trans. I have to trust that because it is important to have such forums and resources.

I don't personally believe in the statements you quote above, but it I think we are capable of talking about what is not so great about these statements. I wanted to know about the stats because I was thinking that maybe there is some study that has been done that would apply to the B-F community. The only one I could remember was Dapper’s- and I had it wrong in my memory about what was really measured.

Something that I have learned via the transpeople in my life as well as in this community (on and off-line) that have experienced life as a butch before transitioning is that we share many commonalities and have supported by them.

This is a butch space for butch expression and I hope it can proceed as such. Obviously with input by trans folks or femmes that want to contribute in a way that keeps the butch experience as the main focus as the thread was designed to do. We need understanding and supportive allies, too- and to have the same kinds of space that transpeople, women, stone people, BDSM folks, femmes, etc. do at times.

Everyone's feelings are valid- yet perhaps not based upon fact and I'm sure posters will point out where the facts are just not there.

[Merlin]

Especially when you don't reside in that country.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by hpychick

julieisafemme,

I appreciate how protective you are here in such a personal space. I apologize for being reactionary and defensive, and also for saying that you were coming from a place of negativity.

I am far from perfect, and often misinterpret things for whatever reason. Nonetheless, I was rude to you and that's really not part of my typical character.

Thank you for the apology; I hope that you will also accept mine.

Sunny

Oh my goodness Sunny!! Of course.

Yes I am protective of these kinds of conversations. This conversation is particularly interesting to me as a partner of a transman. My experience has been with the opposite in that my partner has experienced other lesbians grieving over or questioning why he would want to transition. Last year we went to a conference in his home town and there was an older woman there whom he had known for years who was visibly upset to see that he transitioned. She felt a palpable sense of loss. That was very hard to watch for me and others in the workshop.

[hpychick]

My question was this:

Do you really feel pressurized? Being put in a pressure cooker and cooked until all semblance of the original being has been pressured and steamed out of you? Mine was a shorter version, "Pressurized? Really?"

My derail comment was because it wasn't dealing directly with the posts and was off-the-topic so to speak. I was getting back to the basics. I'll use more words next time so that it's clear on the question I'm posing.

And yes, my comment to julie was personal, and I addressed it to her as such, "julieisafemme."

And yes, I am defensive about it because I thought it was rude and didn't need to be posted there - she displayed the very insensitivity of which she was accusing me.

And, thank you June for moderating.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by hpychick

My question was this:

Do you really feel pressurized? Being put in a pressure cooker and cooked until all semblance of the original being has been pressured and steamed out of you? Mine was a shorter version, "Pressurized? Really?"

I did a google search of " define pressurized" (it can be spelled with either the s or z) and noticed that the informal definition includes "excessive stress" or as, "undue harassment", as listed here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pressurized

I think that there are instances where butches may be "pressured" to transition or, perhaps even in certain scenarios, feel like they must transition because they do not feel "butch enough". Does it happen to every butch? No but I di believe that some feel that they must in order to "compete".