Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[BullDog]

I didn't understand from the very beginning why Butch Voices has always over complicated things. I do think they were honestly striving for inclusiveness and diversity, but were always trying to define things and were constantly trying to add trans language onto butch and come up with long laundry lists of what butch is.

To me the issue is utterly simple. Anyone who considers themselves Butch is. Everyone else at the conference is an Ally. If they want to have a conference for butch, transgender and transmen all together that's a different conference and organization. Let the butch conferences be about the exploration and celebration of all things Butch instead of trying to pre-define it ahead of time.

It would also be nice if the people on the committee did actually identify as butch. I used to constantly get lectured by a committee member who was at least 20-25 years younger than me and that didn't identify as either butch or trans about what butch is.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I didn't understand from the very beginning why Butch Voices has always over complicated things. I do think they were honestly striving for inclusiveness and diversity, but were always trying to define things and were constantly trying to add trans language onto butch and come up with long laundry lists of what butch is.

To me the issue is utterly simple. Anyone who considers themselves Butch is. Everyone else at the conference is an Ally. If they want to have a conference for butch, transgender and transmen all together that's a different conference and organization. Let the butch conferences be about the exploration and celebration of all things Butch instead of trying to pre-define it ahead of time.

It would also be nice if the people on the committee did actually identify as butch. I used to constantly get lectured by a committee member who was at least 20-25 years younger than me and that didn't identify as either butch or trans about what butch is.

Unfortunately, here lies the very crux of the issue. What does " B/butch" mean anymore? Who gets to claim it? Who gets to define it? Who gets to pick and choose what reflection of "masculine" thought patterns/ attire/ attitudes are the funhouse mirror that makes up "B/butch?" ( Note: I do not view B/butch as a sideshow, moreover I do believe that some variance of masculinity is involved in defining "B/butch")

I am asking these questions more of myself than anyone else, so please don't think I am asking you ( Bulldog) or any other "you" to specifically answer them. I ask because I see transmen and transgendered folks referring to them selves as Butch or butch, as well ( over the years I have become confused in the mire as to adjective or noun, even, as folks also switch that aspect of grammar around also).

My earliest knowledge of the word "butch" was when I was in the second grade and my babysitters niece ( about 12 years my senior then) called me her little butch. I later was told it meant women who portrayed masculine behaviors or appearances. OK. I got that. It was me.

I hit my teen years/ and then early 20's in the late 70's early 80's and butch-femme was rather passe in the bar/ club scene. Everything was andro. Even then, as andro as I tried to be to blend, I was still a smidge "left of andro", heh. Maybe we need to realign ourselves and our gender speak with the center rather than the ends. Start everything at andro/ ambi then work our way out to our chosen/ self- realized genders, rather than starting with feminine or masculine and working back to center.

I have always had a very clear "masculine" expression, however, I have also always had "enough" feminine expression to be clear that I am a woman. I do not know when, in our community, it became bad or wrong to be that miraculous blend of both energies. I don't know when "andro" and "tweeners" or even "lesbian" got such a bad rap. I only found it when I started coming to butch-femme sites. I have journeyed full circle in the past ten or so years in trying to define for myself exactly where I am in the schematics of the "butch-femme" continuum, and what I have learned first and foremost, is that the more I try to "define" it, the less of a graceful beautiful dance it becomes.

I learned about FTM's and taught myself to use " Syr" in on line speak to note that I was butch but not FTM, as I didn't want to offend any of the very proud FTM friends I had met. I adapted hy/ he/ hym/ him, because ... well, it was easier at the time. Having questioned myself as being trans ( either gendered or sexed) it never really bothered me. Having sir or ma'am being interchanged toward me from people in RT, it just seemed to make sense.

The longer I have been around ( these sites and well, hell, life in general) the less it matters and the more important it becomes. I have tried to have these types of discussions before coming from the place of not understanding why the "majority" should always rule. The majority wants everyone to be included, to the point of often losing the essence of what was unique in and of itself. I do not think that everyone ALWAYS fits under one umbrella. Yes, there may be times and they may be the majority of the time, that we ALL get together on certain issues or events. There should also be respect for those issues and events that are for a unique group to honor their unique qualities among themselves.

I have a lot of thoughts on the notion of the loss of womens space. I have a lot of thoughts on the idea that male privilege comes from the hands, teaching, nurturing of women themselves. I can look to my mother ( and MANY like her) to see exactly how to raise/ feed and nurture male privilege. I digress.

Butch Voices or Masculine of Center Voices is going through the same sort of issues MWMF has gone through every year since 1976. "Who are we and who are we here for?" At some point, someone decides, or a collective decides and then they stick to it or not. I tend to look at things pretty simply. There is a need for A. If there becomes a need for B and it doesn't conflict with A, then mayhaps they be added to A. If adding B conflicts with A, then maybe B needs to start a group/event/ whatever to suit their needs. Chances are, they will both have groups until someone else comes along and says maybe we need an additional one so that A AND B can be together during this one and we'll call it C. This is how things eventually evolve. Unfortunately, it is never without growing pains.

Very happy to see this subject being discussed frankly. Thank you all.

[citybutch]

An Open Letter has been posted just as an FYI.

http://www.butchvoices.com/2011-07-o...tter#more-4207

[Chazz]

Okay, so I read the whole thing.

For all the disclaimers and verbiage, Krys Freeman never once actually addressed the issues raised by Cordova and company.

The jocular side bar in Freeman's press release is what cut to the crux of the matter for me: "Sweaterbutches without sweaters."

In this, we are witnessing the beatification of (small-d) diversity at the expense of quintessence. Performance art, haute couture, labels are what now substitute for self-hood. The aggregate qualities and characteristics of who we are as women, what we experience, believe and desire no longer matters. We've been tossed into the stew.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Okay, so I read the whole thing.

For all the disclaimers and verbiage, Krys Freeman never once actually addressed the issues raised by Cordova and company.

The jocular side bar in Freeman's press release is what cut to the crux of the matter for me: "Sweaterbutches without sweaters."

In this, we are witnessing the beatification of (small-d) diversity at the expense of quintessence. Performance art, haute couture, labels are what now substitute for self-hood. The aggregate qualities and characteristics of who we are as women, what we experience, believe and desire no longer matters. We've been tossed into the stew.

Another statement about thye split- sorry if already posted-

http://sashatgoldberg.wordpress.com/...ation-is-born/

There appears to be financial problems as well in terms of the "not-for-profit" status of BV. Actually, the BV website does not give info on the actual legal filings and "acceptance" of 503(c) status. A good idea to post that info and the locale of the filing as this is a matter of public record. This status can be revoked at any time if an organization does not comply with the tax exempt status requirements. So, even if BV did secure this status in prior years- that does not mean that it still holds the status and yearly audits are required.

There is going to be a lunch-time talk by Cordova during the BV conference in Oakland.

I would rather have this all worked out within one organization. I wish there was a way to do this. Yes, I do often feel overshadowed as a butch woman by male/masculine identifications, yet, I do find this on-going battle heartbreaking and divisive in a very painful and unproductive way.

[BullDog]

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

If butch women were involved from the beginning, and I believe they were, then who was dictating the terms of their inclusion? Why were butch women not articulating those terms? Why/how did women end up in the back seats?

I don't know the inner workings, but I wonder if the fact that the founder of BV does not identify as a butch woman, and that there seems to be a top-down kind of structure to BV muted the voices of women involved.

One of the things I've learned in the years of anti-violence organizing I've done is that women need to be in the leadership positions. Otherwise sexism takes over. The men I've worked with as allies understand this on a very deep (and feminist) level.

So now, it seems re BV, that women who have been involved are pulling out in order to re-establish their leadership elsewhere. Why they did not have successful leadership roles within BV is not clear. I have also read posts from a number of butch women who did not get on board to begin with because there was a lack of trust in the BV leadership and their agenda.
None of this is addressed in the BV response.

Heart

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

Hasn't it just.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

Exactly Bully..........

I wish they would not call themselves 'Butch Voices' because in my mind they are not.............

[Jess]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Another statement about thye split- sorry if already posted-

http://sashatgoldberg.wordpress.com/...ation-is-born/

There appears to be financial problems as well in terms of the "not-for-profit" status of BV. Actually, the BV website does not give info on the actual legal filings and "acceptance" of 503(c) status. A good idea to post that info and the locale of the filing as this is a matter of public record. This status can be revoked at any time if an organization does not comply with the tax exempt status requirements. So, even if BV did secure this status in prior years- that does not mean that it still holds the status and yearly audits are required.

There is going to be a lunch-time talk by Cordova during the BV conference in Oakland.

I would rather have this all worked out within one organization. I wish there was a way to do this. Yes, I do often feel overshadowed as a butch woman by male/masculine identifications, yet, I do find this on-going battle heartbreaking and divisive in a very painful and unproductive way.

Without getting into the he said/ she said of that organization or their practices, it does at least appear to me that they have done a good job in the transparency of their financials.
http://www.butchvoices.com/about/financials/

These are very detailed P&L's, which is just about all most folks are really interested in anyway. I would however agree, that if a group ( whatever kind of group it is) states they are a non-profit or not for profit, perhaps they would be wise to address their status ( legal tax exemption) within their mission statement right after they mention being not for profit. I feel quite certain that after all of this pans out, their board will probably do just that.

I don't think they are obligated to "post" any legal filings on a general website unless there are stockholders involved. If it is a matter of public record, then certainly the public is free to look these things up. When inquiring minds want to know...they find out. Trust me, my wife can let you know exactly how easy it is to look up a tax exempt status record ( which is why she is banned from another site which bears no name in this discussion)

It disturbs me most ( in situations like this) that it becomes an unfolding drama of who is right and whom is wrong. Because it always seems to boil down to that. I see this as yet another phase of growing and developing as a community of very varied individuals. Nobody is happy when mommy and daddy fight, much less split up. Within these types of close knit, strongly bonded communities, it feels like that when the "board" runs into an insurmountable difference of opinion. Folks forget they are a "Board" and not mommy and daddy. They take sides.

I don't have a side. I had considered attending the last conference, but wasn't sure if I was a right "fit". I also get very tired of the drama surrounding politics. The politics won't go away, because they are core issues for most of us, however, I can, will and do limit the personal drama as much as possible.

It appears BV will continue and that Butch Nation will now evolve to fill the needs of butches who do not as closely relate to the BV definers. OK. Cool. We have choices.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by June

I don't think their financials are transparent at all. There are telephone, hotel, travel, car, food and external conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them. Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed.

And it's their right not to disclose. They are not now, nor have they been in the past a 501c3. Whether or not they are actively seeking to become one is not clear from information on the website.

However, in my opinion, because they are a volunteer driven organization actively seeking donations to further their organization AND they are charging a fairly high registration fee for the "privilege" of gathering together with other "Masculine of Center" folks, it seems to me that they do have an obligation to be extremely transparent in their financial dealings.

For example, I get that organizing is very difficult and time consuming work. Sometimes, we get paid for that work if we're fortunate enough to do it for an established 501c3/NPO. Granted, nobody is getting rich working for an NPO, unless it's a really big one with deep pockets like, HRC. (And "rich" is relative, right?). So, let's say you're an average working class Queer and you want to attend a conference or event, you've got at minimum, the following:

Registration
Airfare/travel
Hotel
Food

I fail to see the fairness if you, as a participant have these expenses to attend the event, and a "few" or less, because they are organizing the event, don't have the same expenses. UNLESS it is stated that a certain portion of your registration will be used for the expenses of the President/Founder/Board Members or whomever. Then you can decide if that feels good to you, and make an educated decision whether or not to support that.

As I have said, ad nauseum, I don't care personally if you make money from the work you do. But if I am supporting you financially and with time, then I want to know about it.

I understand that not everyone agrees with this and lots of people don't care that their registration money is going to pay for someones room service when they are making sandwiches out of a cooler because they spent everything they had to get to the event, but I do care about that very much.

--June

While I do think that organizers of events should get perks becasue of how difficult the work is, I agree that of someone is asking for donations full disclosure of what is happening with the money is the right thing to do.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by June

I don't think their financials are transparent at all. There are telephone, hotel, travel, car, food and external conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them. Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed.

And it's their right not to disclose. They are not now, nor have they been in the past a 501c3. Whether or not they are actively seeking to become one is not clear from information on the website.

However, in my opinion, because they are a volunteer driven organization actively seeking donations to further their organization AND they are charging a fairly high registration fee for the "privilege" of gathering together with other "Masculine of Center" folks, it seems to me that they do have an obligation to be extremely transparent in their financial dealings.

For example, I get that organizing is very difficult and time consuming work. Sometimes, we get paid for that work if we're fortunate enough to do it for an established 501c3/NPO. Granted, nobody is getting rich working for an NPO, unless it's a really big one with deep pockets like, HRC. (And "rich" is relative, right?). So, let's say you're an average working class Queer and you want to attend a conference or event, you've got at minimum, the following:

Registration
Airfare/travel
Hotel
Food

I fail to see the fairness if you, as a participant have these expenses to attend the event, and a "few" or less, because they are organizing the event, don't have the same expenses. UNLESS it is stated that a certain portion of your registration will be used for the expenses of the President/Founder/Board Members or whomever. Then you can decide if that feels good to you, and make an educated decision whether or not to support that.

As I have said, ad nauseum, I don't care personally if you make money from the work you do. But if I am supporting you financially and with time, then I want to know about it.

I understand that not everyone agrees with this and lots of people don't care that their registration money is going to pay for someones room service when they are making sandwiches out of a cooler because they spent everything they had to get to the event, but I do care about that very much.

--June

I am no accountant, however, to ME their P&L's seem pretty detailed. I have looked at other transparent sites to try and compare, and mind you, I am no math whiz, but, theirs do seem to give a more accurate breakdown than most I have seen.

When I made a statement about them and their "non-profit/ not-for-profit" status, I mistakenly misread or misinterpreted what At Last had posted leading me to believe they were claiming to be of that tax exempt status. When I read Goldberg's press release ( which, btw, it always bothers me when someone reports "news" about themselves in third person) she clearly states that they are NOT not-for-profit. The "legal" standing or issues hinted at in At Last's post, was a comment Goldberg made referring to BV's legal standing in asking the volunteer members to sign a non-disclosure/ non-compete contract.

In so far as the telephone,hotel, car, travel, etc expenses, I would be willing to guess they are related to, at least in part, the Regional Symposiums they produce/host. From looking at the site, it appears they do a great deal of hands on out-reach involving different media and different cities across the country. These symposiums generate the majority of their income. They do not set up and run themselves. People are usually sent to events as supervisory roles or representatives or educators/speakers and just as the average working class person can't afford what persons in a better financial bracket might, the extra expense of a trip across country to try to carry the word may be a part of the budget built in by their board, in that BV carries the cost of the members who go "host" these events. I am not a member or board member there so I am simply guessing based on my experience on other boards/ groups, that this is not unheard of or even of questionable ethics.

As to the lack of a line item for "scholarships", there is none. However, they do clearly state on their Financial assistance page ...

"A NOTE ON FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE:
BUTCH Voices is an amazing organization, hoping to put on an amazing conference. While we are able to offer assistance, our funds are not limitless. We have a set budget for financial assistance (we would be happy to share that with you if you are interested in seeing it)."

From the format of their P&L's, I would assume that where a "budget" exists, an actual current and prior also exist. I would also assume that the choice to not post that in their P&L may come from privacy issues with the recipients of those awards.

I m not exactly sure why all of this ( your post) felt pointed toward me, I am sure part of it is just venting. I would like to point out that all I said is that their spreadsheets appear very transparent and clear to me and that IF they are a not for profit, they should consider declaring that. If they have what you view as some sort of discrepancies in their reporting perhaps they are lumping those costs into categories that the details of which are handled in an accountants journal. Who knows??? This "feels" to me very icky. I mean, seriously, our own transparent financials don't even include last years Reunion. At least, as far as I can tell. I've looked through a few admin oriented threads and just can't seem to find it, perhaps I am just missing it. So, I, can't attempt to second guess how their Board has decided to record/ post their business. So, moving on...

The biggest issue I have with it ALL... is that it just feels like once again plain ole butch dykes ( and generally speaking their femme partners/ spouses by affiliation) are being cast aside. It is not just there that it is happening. It is happening all over the LGBTQIA ( is that all of it?) community.

Scandal Andy... my describing MY butch experience(s) is very much a LESBIAN discussion. Here, I'll toss in a leap if it makes you more comfy... LEAP! Sometimes we lesbians Leap for Joy... Sometimes we jump up and down to be heard as our... OUR VOICES are being strangled as much by our own "allies" as those other people we like to THINK oppress and erase us. Even on this site I have seen "lesbian sex" referred to as boring while accolades were strewn for hetero-sex. Interesting, no? Where the hell are we going as a queer community when we are blatantly criticizing lesbian sex over the newly ( and creepily in my world) preferred hetero-sex? This is just an example and not a jumping on someone for some other thread thing.

I apologize if my need to self reveal/ self discover read to you as a defining of butch. I am really, as always, just trying to wrap my head around all of this
ever changing stuff. It is just how I process. In my life experience, just mine mine mine... to be Butch was to be Lesbian. Perhaps that might help you get where I was coming from. It ( heh, the definition of Butch) HAS changed.

[citybutch]

June as the person who works on the P&L I will put together some notes together for you. I am currently on vacation and was out on the water yesterday so didn't have service to respond more promptly.

As an FYI, and generally speaking, and as someone who sits on numerous Boards such as the local LGBT Center, a theatre, and on the finance committee on a local LGBT Foundation, professional financials do not go into detail as to who is cut what check when. In fact, it is not even the Board who sees the detailed financials in many organizations. It is the finance committee who reviews the detailed financials and it is the audit committee who reviews the detailed audit. The committees then recommend to the Board approval (or not) after recommended changes are made. The Board (and the community or constituency who is served ) is/are free to ask questions about the details which the Treasurer or other members of the finance committee will answer. To work on a Board of Directors for an organization means there is a lot of oversight over programs, staff (if there is one), financials, building maintenance, etc.

Also, the Board of BV is actively seeking 501 (c) 3 status through a sponsor. It is complicated for this organization because we engage in activity in multiple States. If we were to file for 501 (c) 3 status on our own it would be a complicated and an expensive endeavor... one in which our minimal resources would not cover.

I will be back when I am able to make note of your questions.

Thanks for your questioning mind June!

Originally Posted by June

I don't think their financials are transparent at all. There are telephone, hotel, travel, car, food and external conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them. Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed.

And it's their right not to disclose. They are not now, nor have they been in the past a 501c3. Whether or not they are actively seeking to become one is not clear from information on the website.

However, in my opinion, because they are a volunteer driven organization actively seeking donations to further their organization AND they are charging a fairly high registration fee for the "privilege" of gathering together with other "Masculine of Center" folks, it seems to me that they do have an obligation to be extremely transparent in their financial dealings.

For example, I get that organizing is very difficult and time consuming work. Sometimes, we get paid for that work if we're fortunate enough to do it for an established 501c3/NPO. Granted, nobody is getting rich working for an NPO, unless it's a really big one with deep pockets like, HRC. (And "rich" is relative, right?). So, let's say you're an average working class Queer and you want to attend a conference or event, you've got at minimum, the following:

Registration
Airfare/travel
Hotel
Food

I fail to see the fairness if you, as a participant have these expenses to attend the event, and a "few" or less, because they are organizing the event, don't have the same expenses. UNLESS it is stated that a certain portion of your registration will be used for the expenses of the President/Founder/Board Members or whomever. Then you can decide if that feels good to you, and make an educated decision whether or not to support that.

As I have said, ad nauseum, I don't care personally if you make money from the work you do. But if I am supporting you financially and with time, then I want to know about it.

I understand that not everyone agrees with this and lots of people don't care that their registration money is going to pay for someones room service when they are making sandwiches out of a cooler because they spent everything they had to get to the event, but I do care about that very much.

--June