Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Okay, so I read the whole thing.

For all the disclaimers and verbiage, Krys Freeman never once actually addressed the issues raised by Cordova and company.

The jocular side bar in Freeman's press release is what cut to the crux of the matter for me: "Sweaterbutches without sweaters."

In this, we are witnessing the beatification of (small-d) diversity at the expense of quintessence. Performance art, haute couture, labels are what now substitute for self-hood. The aggregate qualities and characteristics of who we are as women, what we experience, believe and desire no longer matters. We've been tossed into the stew.

Another statement about thye split- sorry if already posted-

http://sashatgoldberg.wordpress.com/...ation-is-born/

There appears to be financial problems as well in terms of the "not-for-profit" status of BV. Actually, the BV website does not give info on the actual legal filings and "acceptance" of 503(c) status. A good idea to post that info and the locale of the filing as this is a matter of public record. This status can be revoked at any time if an organization does not comply with the tax exempt status requirements. So, even if BV did secure this status in prior years- that does not mean that it still holds the status and yearly audits are required.

There is going to be a lunch-time talk by Cordova during the BV conference in Oakland.

I would rather have this all worked out within one organization. I wish there was a way to do this. Yes, I do often feel overshadowed as a butch woman by male/masculine identifications, yet, I do find this on-going battle heartbreaking and divisive in a very painful and unproductive way.

[BullDog]

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

If butch women were involved from the beginning, and I believe they were, then who was dictating the terms of their inclusion? Why were butch women not articulating those terms? Why/how did women end up in the back seats?

I don't know the inner workings, but I wonder if the fact that the founder of BV does not identify as a butch woman, and that there seems to be a top-down kind of structure to BV muted the voices of women involved.

One of the things I've learned in the years of anti-violence organizing I've done is that women need to be in the leadership positions. Otherwise sexism takes over. The men I've worked with as allies understand this on a very deep (and feminist) level.

So now, it seems re BV, that women who have been involved are pulling out in order to re-establish their leadership elsewhere. Why they did not have successful leadership roles within BV is not clear. I have also read posts from a number of butch women who did not get on board to begin with because there was a lack of trust in the BV leadership and their agenda.
None of this is addressed in the BV response.

Heart

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Okay, so I read the whole thing.

For all the disclaimers and verbiage, Krys Freeman never once actually addressed the issues raised by Cordova and company.

The jocular side bar in Freeman's press release is what cut to the crux of the matter for me: "Sweaterbutches without sweaters."

In this, we are witnessing the beatification of (small-d) diversity at the expense of quintessence. Performance art, haute couture, labels are what now substitute for self-hood. The aggregate qualities and characteristics of who we are as women, what we experience, believe and desire no longer matters. We've been tossed into the stew.

Sorry to be dense, but what is a sweaterbutch?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Heart

If butch women were involved from the beginning, and I believe they were, then who was dictating the terms of their inclusion? Why were butch women not articulating those terms? Why/how did women end up in the back seats?

I don't know the inner workings, but I wonder if the fact that the founder of BV does not identify as a butch woman, and that there seems to be a top-down kind of structure to BV muted the voices of women involved.

One of the things I've learned in the years of anti-violence organizing I've done is that women need to be in the leadership positions. Otherwise sexism takes over. The men I've worked with as allies understand this on a very deep (and feminist) level.

So now, it seems re BV, that women who have been involved are pulling out in order to re-establish their leadership elsewhere. Why they did not have successful leadership roles within BV is not clear. I have also read posts from a number of butch women who did not get on board to begin with because there was a lack of trust in the BV leadership and their agenda.
None of this is addressed in the BV response.

Heart

In the beginning it was hard to get people involved. Joe did do a lot of it, so I believe he was the main one bringing people on board, although I am sure he had input from others.

I think Joe and others who had been involved with conferences in the past had set ways of how things should be structured and how decisions should be made. I wasn't familiar with any of it and didn't like it.

Joe asked me and several other butch women to become involved from the beginning. So yes we were there, but when we voiced our concerns with the way things were going we were told we were being disrespectful to the trans members of the board and being divisive and that there wasn't time for all this, that there was a Conference that needed to be pulled together. Language was added to the website at the time that was suggested by a butch woman.

There was a very successful workshop held by Sasha for butch women/female id'd butches at the Conference and Jeanne Cordova gave an awesome keynote address.

[ScandalAndy]

I'm confused. I thought this was a thread for individuals who choose to identify as lesbians, not a debate forum about what the term "butch" means and who should be allowed to identify as such...

Perhaps the butch topic would be better served as the subject of its own thread.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I'm confused. I thought this was a thread for individuals who choose to identify as lesbians, not a debate forum about what the term "butch" means and who should be allowed to identify as such...

Perhaps the butch topic would be better served as the subject of its own thread.

The butch women speaking here are identified as lesbians... and I'm not seeing a debate about the term butch...

But whatever...

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by Heart

The butch women speaking here are identified as lesbians... and I'm not seeing a debate about the term butch...

But whatever...

Please see below:

Originally Posted by Liam

Some of our members are having a difficult time seeing the lesbians in our community. Please step up, and let them know you are here.

Originally Posted by Jess

Unfortunately, here lies the very crux of the issue. What does " B/butch" mean anymore? Who gets to claim it? Who gets to define it? Who gets to pick and choose what reflection of "masculine" thought patterns/ attire/ attitudes are the funhouse mirror that makes up "B/butch?" ( Note: I do not view B/butch as a sideshow, moreover I do believe that some variance of masculinity is involved in defining "B/butch")

I am asking these questions more of myself than anyone else, so please don't think I am asking you ( Bulldog) or any other "you" to specifically answer them. I ask because I see transmen and transgendered folks referring to them selves as Butch or butch, as well ( over the years I have become confused in the mire as to adjective or noun, even, as folks also switch that aspect of grammar around also).

My earliest knowledge of the word "butch" was when I was in the second grade and my babysitters niece ( about 12 years my senior then) called me her little butch. I later was told it meant women who portrayed masculine behaviors or appearances. OK. I got that. It was me.

I hit my teen years/ and then early 20's in the late 70's early 80's and butch-femme was rather passe in the bar/ club scene. Everything was andro. Even then, as andro as I tried to be to blend, I was still a smidge "left of andro", heh. Maybe we need to realign ourselves and our gender speak with the center rather than the ends. Start everything at andro/ ambi then work our way out to our chosen/ self- realized genders, rather than starting with feminine or masculine and working back to center.

I have always had a very clear "masculine" expression, however, I have also always had "enough" feminine expression to be clear that I am a woman. I do not know when, in our community, it became bad or wrong to be that miraculous blend of both energies. I don't know when "andro" and "tweeners" or even "lesbian" got such a bad rap. I only found it when I started coming to butch-femme sites. I have journeyed full circle in the past ten or so years in trying to define for myself exactly where I am in the schematics of the "butch-femme" continuum, and what I have learned first and foremost, is that the more I try to "define" it, the less of a graceful beautiful dance it becomes.

I learned about FTM's and taught myself to use " Syr" in on line speak to note that I was butch but not FTM, as I didn't want to offend any of the very proud FTM friends I had met. I adapted hy/ he/ hym/ him, because ... well, it was easier at the time. Having questioned myself as being trans ( either gendered or sexed) it never really bothered me. Having sir or ma'am being interchanged toward me from people in RT, it just seemed to make sense.

The longer I have been around ( these sites and well, hell, life in general) the less it matters and the more important it becomes. I have tried to have these types of discussions before coming from the place of not understanding why the "majority" should always rule. The majority wants everyone to be included, to the point of often losing the essence of what was unique in and of itself. I do not think that everyone ALWAYS fits under one umbrella. Yes, there may be times and they may be the majority of the time, that we ALL get together on certain issues or events. There should also be respect for those issues and events that are for a unique group to honor their unique qualities among themselves.

I have a lot of thoughts on the notion of the loss of womens space. I have a lot of thoughts on the idea that male privilege comes from the hands, teaching, nurturing of women themselves. I can look to my mother ( and MANY like her) to see exactly how to raise/ feed and nurture male privilege. I digress.

Butch Voices or Masculine of Center Voices is going through the same sort of issues MWMF has gone through every year since 1976. "Who are we and who are we here for?" At some point, someone decides, or a collective decides and then they stick to it or not. I tend to look at things pretty simply. There is a need for A. If there becomes a need for B and it doesn't conflict with A, then mayhaps they be added to A. If adding B conflicts with A, then maybe B needs to start a group/event/ whatever to suit their needs. Chances are, they will both have groups until someone else comes along and says maybe we need an additional one so that A AND B can be together during this one and we'll call it C. This is how things eventually evolve. Unfortunately, it is never without growing pains.

Very happy to see this subject being discussed frankly. Thank you all.

[Slater]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I'm confused. I thought this was a thread for individuals who choose to identify as lesbians, not a debate forum about what the term "butch" means and who should be allowed to identify as such...

Perhaps the butch topic would be better served as the subject of its own thread.

If there was a detailed discussion of the term butch and who it does or doesn't include, then I would definitely agree with you that this wasn't the best place for it because this forum would not naturally include some of the stakeholders in such a discussion. Hopefully I have not misunderstood your objection.

But to me it seems like this discussion is mostly about feeling out where the areas of contention are -- defining the issues that need to be addressed, rather than trying to address them. And while I think this certainly could take places in other forums, I don't think it's out of place here, for two reasons.

First, as Heart mentioned, it centers around erasing the female-identified (and largely lesbian-identified) butches and all that is implied in that. But beyond that, I think lesbian-identified femmes have a stake in this too. Even though it is a butch organization, the manner in which it (or any organization in our community) addresses questions/problems around sexism and female leadership and participation is relevant to both butches and femmes.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

Hasn't it just.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

Exactly Bully..........

I wish they would not call themselves 'Butch Voices' because in my mind they are not.............

[Jess]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Another statement about thye split- sorry if already posted-

http://sashatgoldberg.wordpress.com/...ation-is-born/

There appears to be financial problems as well in terms of the "not-for-profit" status of BV. Actually, the BV website does not give info on the actual legal filings and "acceptance" of 503(c) status. A good idea to post that info and the locale of the filing as this is a matter of public record. This status can be revoked at any time if an organization does not comply with the tax exempt status requirements. So, even if BV did secure this status in prior years- that does not mean that it still holds the status and yearly audits are required.

There is going to be a lunch-time talk by Cordova during the BV conference in Oakland.

I would rather have this all worked out within one organization. I wish there was a way to do this. Yes, I do often feel overshadowed as a butch woman by male/masculine identifications, yet, I do find this on-going battle heartbreaking and divisive in a very painful and unproductive way.

Without getting into the he said/ she said of that organization or their practices, it does at least appear to me that they have done a good job in the transparency of their financials.
http://www.butchvoices.com/about/financials/

These are very detailed P&L's, which is just about all most folks are really interested in anyway. I would however agree, that if a group ( whatever kind of group it is) states they are a non-profit or not for profit, perhaps they would be wise to address their status ( legal tax exemption) within their mission statement right after they mention being not for profit. I feel quite certain that after all of this pans out, their board will probably do just that.

I don't think they are obligated to "post" any legal filings on a general website unless there are stockholders involved. If it is a matter of public record, then certainly the public is free to look these things up. When inquiring minds want to know...they find out. Trust me, my wife can let you know exactly how easy it is to look up a tax exempt status record ( which is why she is banned from another site which bears no name in this discussion)

It disturbs me most ( in situations like this) that it becomes an unfolding drama of who is right and whom is wrong. Because it always seems to boil down to that. I see this as yet another phase of growing and developing as a community of very varied individuals. Nobody is happy when mommy and daddy fight, much less split up. Within these types of close knit, strongly bonded communities, it feels like that when the "board" runs into an insurmountable difference of opinion. Folks forget they are a "Board" and not mommy and daddy. They take sides.

I don't have a side. I had considered attending the last conference, but wasn't sure if I was a right "fit". I also get very tired of the drama surrounding politics. The politics won't go away, because they are core issues for most of us, however, I can, will and do limit the personal drama as much as possible.

It appears BV will continue and that Butch Nation will now evolve to fill the needs of butches who do not as closely relate to the BV definers. OK. Cool. We have choices.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by June

I don't think their financials are transparent at all. There are telephone, hotel, travel, car, food and external conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them. Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed.

And it's their right not to disclose. They are not now, nor have they been in the past a 501c3. Whether or not they are actively seeking to become one is not clear from information on the website.

However, in my opinion, because they are a volunteer driven organization actively seeking donations to further their organization AND they are charging a fairly high registration fee for the "privilege" of gathering together with other "Masculine of Center" folks, it seems to me that they do have an obligation to be extremely transparent in their financial dealings.

For example, I get that organizing is very difficult and time consuming work. Sometimes, we get paid for that work if we're fortunate enough to do it for an established 501c3/NPO. Granted, nobody is getting rich working for an NPO, unless it's a really big one with deep pockets like, HRC. (And "rich" is relative, right?). So, let's say you're an average working class Queer and you want to attend a conference or event, you've got at minimum, the following:

Registration
Airfare/travel
Hotel
Food

I fail to see the fairness if you, as a participant have these expenses to attend the event, and a "few" or less, because they are organizing the event, don't have the same expenses. UNLESS it is stated that a certain portion of your registration will be used for the expenses of the President/Founder/Board Members or whomever. Then you can decide if that feels good to you, and make an educated decision whether or not to support that.

As I have said, ad nauseum, I don't care personally if you make money from the work you do. But if I am supporting you financially and with time, then I want to know about it.

I understand that not everyone agrees with this and lots of people don't care that their registration money is going to pay for someones room service when they are making sandwiches out of a cooler because they spent everything they had to get to the event, but I do care about that very much.

--June

While I do think that organizers of events should get perks becasue of how difficult the work is, I agree that of someone is asking for donations full disclosure of what is happening with the money is the right thing to do.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by June

While I think we can go too far in denying ourselves equity/payment for work done, and organizing work is valuable, whether it is bringing folks together, providing learning and growth opportunities, or all of the above, I am also personally invested in equality. (long sentence!)

There is a thin line for me in situations like this between entitlement (which is taking, which can also be seen as privilege) and being compensated for time. How do you (general) decide who's work is more valuable? Who's voice is more valuable? (getting back on topic!).

There is a lot going on within this conversation about Butch (all different kinds!) Voices and who's voice is getting heard, and who has been pushed so far to the back of the room, that it is barely audible.

As a Femme partnered to a female identified Butch person, who also has many friends across the Butch and male spectrum, I am personally invested that all of their voices are heard and respect is given. Beyond the financials, it is worrisome to me that it appears that once again, Butch women are expected to subjugate/sit down/be quiet/not create waves because they are somehow perceived to be less than or out dated or passe. It's also alarming to me that there is a reluctance to use the word Feminist.

I am not adverse to "new" language being added to our collective vocabulary. Cisgendered, Masculine of Center, or other descriptors people choose to identify themselves as. I think we NEED more words! But in the process, do we have to downgrade and denigrate those who claim the words and descriptors already in use because they are deemed outmoded? Isn't there room at the table for all voices in the spectrum? Shouldn't there be?

About the financials, I do agree that there should be full disclosure so that these questions are not even asked. I would be fine with volunteer planners receiving an industry wide accepted amount of per diem and mileage allowance.

As to Butch Women and Feminists, you know I agree with you 100%. The table is big and should be inclusive.

What do you think about questions of whether this is more about age than Feminism?

[Heart]

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

What Heart says rings true for me but is a little more basic than just leadership, old and new guard.

To me, the issue comes down to basic female vs other than female identified. It comes down to not a butch thing, however one chooses to define it, but to a female vs non-female/male thing. And it is not about celebrating diversity. It is about attempts to meld genders into something acceptable to all.

While I have a great deal of respect for transpersons, I have no need or desire, nor do I find it at all beneficial to women to meld genders. I actually find that to be disturbing and downright foolish.

In many respects, it is like saying to a group of diverse ethnicities, lets all become one cuz our commonness is in being human. AND, lets have the white race head it all. I tend to think other ethnicities might have a wee bit of a problem with this considering the history and reality of ongoing oppression and racism.

Same is true when you try and meld female and non-female into "masculine of center". The very term negates my femaleness and promotes things masculine. This will never sit right with me.

In the same vein, there are attempts, from my point of view, to meld lesbian/gay with non lesbian/gay. Again, this doesnt sit right with me. I am not at all comfortable with giving up my lesbianism in any way, shape or form.

As a point of history, Planet didnt even have a Lesbian Zone back in 2010. It took a bit of controversy to get one. And then, a guy takes it upon himself to start the first thread in the Lesbian Zone. That was a power play and a very in your face display of masculine privilege.

To me, there are boundaries and space issues which should be respected if one wants to celebrate diversity. It is about not blurring boundaries or invading others space or one group taking it upon themselves to speak for another. To do so is putting one in a dominant position and the other in a subordinate one.

There may be a new world order coming but it shouldnt come at the expense of melding genders or orientations.

[OS Butch]

This conversation stirs many things in my memories as a lesbian and butch woman.

Years ago through my employer, we had to attend Diversity Training. In the room there were signs around the room. Age, Man/Woman, Nationality, Sexual Orientation, and several others I can't remember.
The exercise was to stand under the sign in the order of importance in your life. My 1st sign I stood under was Woman. Some where around 3rd , did I stand under the sexual orientation sign, which happened to be right next to the age sign. There was a crowd under the age one and I was the only one standing at the Sexual orientation sign. The guy standing next to me said something about squeezing in to make room in the age group. I said no, thats ok, I am standing here because I am queer as a 3 dollar bill.
Not too long ago, a lesbian woman, very ignorant of the butch femme dynamic, said to me that I made a poor imitation of a man.
At a Butch Femme event, the was a stink about a POC luncheon, because it was for only for POC, not allies or significant others that were not POC.
I am not sure where all my rambling is leading, but these are the things that have popped into my head after reading the recent posts.

OSB

[Chazz]

Still hoping for a discussion of this:

Originally Posted by Heart

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

This business of leadership style is about how power and control is welded.

The Butch Voices controversy illustrates a top down, hierarchical model typically associated with male leadership. Its authoritarian, elitist, patronizing and pretentious. This form of "leadership" presumes to speak FOR its constituents. Hence, neologisms like: "Masculine of center".

Feminist models of leadership tend to be collaborative, relational, inclusive, horizontal rather than hierarchical, with a keen eye towards power dynamics.

"Study findings indicate that because feminists construct themselves differently from traditional [male] leadership models, they are often marginalized." (Tracy Barton, PhD in 2006 in higher education administration and women’s and gender studies from the University of Toledo)

For further reading on Feminist leadership styles: http://www.humiliationstudies.org/do...Leadership.pdf

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Kobi

What Heart says rings true for me but is a little more basic than just leadership, old and new guard.

To me, the issue comes down to basic female vs other than female identified. It comes down to not a butch thing, however one chooses to define it, but to a female vs non-female/male thing. And it is not about celebrating diversity. It is about attempts to meld genders into something acceptable to all.

Ah, the grand melting post of gender.

Who's agenda does that grand melting post serve?

Originally Posted by Kobi

While I have a great deal of respect for transpersons, I have no need or desire, nor do I find it at all beneficial to women to meld genders. I actually find that to be disturbing and downright foolish.

Yep....

Originally Posted by Kobi

In many respects, it is like saying to a group of diverse ethnicities, lets all become one cuz our commonness is in being human. AND, lets have the white race head it all. I tend to think other ethnicities might have a wee bit of a problem with this considering the history and reality of ongoing oppression and racism.

Same is true when you try and meld female and non-female into "masculine of center". The very term negates my femaleness and promotes things masculine. This will never sit right with me.

In the same vein, there are attempts, from my point of view, to meld lesbian/gay with non lesbian/gay. Again, this doesn't sit right with me. I am not at all comfortable with giving up my lesbianism in any way, shape or form.

As a point of history, Planet didnt even have a Lesbian Zone back in 2010. It took a bit of controversy to get one. And then, a guy takes it upon himself to start the first thread in the Lesbian Zone. That was a power play and a very in your face display of masculine privilege.

To me, there are boundaries and space issues which should be respected if one wants to celebrate diversity. It is about not blurring boundaries or invading others space or one group taking it upon themselves to speak for another. To do so is putting one in a dominant position and the other in a subordinate one.

It is precisely about "blurring boundaries", "invading other's space" and "taking it upon themselves to speak for another".

In academic circles that's called neo-colonialism (it use to be referred to as: The White Man's Burden).

Originally Posted by Kobi

There may be a new world order coming but it shouldn't come at the expense of melding genders or orientations.

It's NOT about a "new world order coming". It's about the reinstatement of a very old world order.

When are lesbians going to look at these issues through the lens of critical thinking? It will be too late when we get herded into calling ourselves gender screwnicorns?

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

What exactly are we supposed to discuss if issues concerning our community are not acceptable? Are there certain areas of being a Lesbian you would like to see?

Even the person who started this thread is not a Lesbian.....so really I would think we can talk about whatever we want to?

To me, Butch Lesbians are Lesbians.

Maybe report the thread if you don't like the content?

I don't understand the problem.

To me, this has been a Lesbian discussion of long standing.

Originally Posted by Heart

I don't think Jess was debating, I think Jess was speaking to issues related to the Butch Voices controversy that is being discussed here by lesbians.

Sheesh.

Originally Posted by Slater

If there was a detailed discussion of the term butch and who it does or doesn't include, then I would definitely agree with you that this wasn't the best place for it because this forum would not naturally include some of the stakeholders in such a discussion. Hopefully I have not misunderstood your objection.

But to me it seems like this discussion is mostly about feeling out where the areas of contention are -- defining the issues that need to be addressed, rather than trying to address them. And while I think this certainly could take places in other forums, I don't think it's out of place here, for two reasons.

First, as Heart mentioned, it centers around erasing the female-identified (and largely lesbian-identified) butches and all that is implied in that. But beyond that, I think lesbian-identified femmes have a stake in this too. Even though it is a butch organization, the manner in which it (or any organization in our community) addresses questions/problems around sexism and female leadership and participation is relevant to both butches and femmes.

My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

As for Jess's comment, I was solely intending to use that to counter Heart's objection that discussion about what the term "butch" meant was not happening, when clearly it was.

I think the discussion about BV is important, like I said, I just don't think this was the right thread for it.