Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?



Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

Carried out to it's logical conclusion MoC ends up being yet another covert way to put women in their places...just like it always has been.

It pisses me OFF.

Or that is what it sounds like to me. That being Trans is preferable to being women.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Carried out to it's logical conclusion MoC ends up being yet another covert way to put women in their places...just like it always has been.

It pisses me OFF.

What's samatta, you don't like Wyoming?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Chazz

What's samatta, you don't like Wyoming?

I am sure it is quite lovely, but why we gotta move?

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I am sure it is quite lovely, but why we gotta move?

'Cause we were told too. Don't be difficult.

You don't wanna be seen as a non-compliant woman, do you.

Pack a bag. I'll pick you up in the Winnebago in ten.

[BullDog]

Well a group for butch women was started on Facebook. Hundreds of butches joined. Of course we were charged with being exclusionary.

[Kobi]

I have three ideas to cover here but I need to split them up for clarity purposes.

First, I would love to discuss the differences in leadership style between males and females but I am reluctant to do so in regards to BV specifically.

Aside from the 2 points of reference that were provided to us, I dont know the organization, the history or the players. I suspect there are elements of truths on each side. I dont feel informed enough to be able to speak to their specific hierarchy.

I can say thank you to Chazz for the feminist leadership info....even if it was by a name that I would presume is male.

In my personal experience, I can attest to feeling, witnessing and being part of the difference of leadership styles between women and men. I have found female leadership to be more process oriented and male leadership to be more outcome oriented.

However, the context of the group being lead has always played into the picture. Not all female lead groups are process oriented, nor male lead groups outcome oriented. The purpose of the group or meeting does determine which style of leadership works best in a given situation.

In my personal experience, issues related to women, and in this case it is female id lesbian butches, is best left to leadership by women. Males cannot understand the issues of a woman/lesbian in quite the same way as a woman/lesbian can. Most males reqardless of their origins, still cannot grasp the concept of inherent male privilege. Thats a problem for mixed gender groups.

So, to me, having a male/masculine identity/person speak for me or be a leader for my issues as a woman/lesbian is a huge step back in time to a place I dont want to go.

In the same vein, having a female/lesbian lead or speak for male/masculine essentially straight people would also be problematic.

Thinking one can merge the two into something with commonalities essentially negates the beauty and desirability of their differences. That is problematic as well.

This is a very complex thing.

[Kobi]

My second point has to do with the new world order and no Chazz, its not about women/female id butches taking a step back LOL.

The trans community is growing by leaps and bounds. As more and more folks come to grips with their true selves and take steps to create their true selves it will grow even more. When children as young as 2 or 3 are showing and stating gender issues, it is a reality that cannot be ignored.

Basic change theory postulates that a change in one part of a system requires a change in another. It has to change. It cannot not change.

We have seen glimpses of just some of the issues that need to be grappled with on this site. We have seen issues related to transgender athletes in sports, to bathrooms, to locker rooms, to educational facilities and opportunities, to anti discrimination laws, the Michigan Womens Music festival, Olivia cruises etc.

The part that gets complicated is we have a fast moving changing reality and are ill equipped, presently, to incorporate that into everyday living at a pace that keeps up. Kind of like technology is leap years ahead of law.

The butch-femme community talks a lot about getting rid of a binary system of gender yet we cling to it! Butch femme connotates a certain thing. So one is expected to be one or the other. Seeing not too many guys are clamoring for the femme label, it is the butch label that is taking the brunt of things.

In the new world order, I fully expect butch-femme as we know it will become obsolete. It will take time, in-fighting, a lot of hurt feelings, before something new reflecting the new reality will emerge.

Change is hard on everyone and resisted at all costs. It is the pain/pleasure principle (principle not dynamic). My opinion is, clinging to binary system in butch femme is clinging to the known out of fear of the unknown. So, rather than work toward something new, we are seemingly trying to rehash the old. It's familiar. It's comfortable even tho it is in an uncomfortable way.

Lesbians/female id butches will fight back when they are grouped with male id's. It should be expected. Lesbians/female id's will look/go elsewhere when male id's seek to speak for or define them. It's logical. Women will react when male power and privilige negatively impacts them. It's viseral in this day and age.

It's a process and a very uncomfortable one. But what we have here is a freakin pie. Instead of 2 pieces, you cut it into three or four or five. You dont have to stab at one another or carve out one piece into many. You have to reconfigure the entire pie. It can be a win-win proposition.

We will get there. But I am not looking forward to the process.

[Chazz]

Maybe butch women should start an organization called Uzbek Voices and presume to speak for them.

We'll let Uzbeks join of course as long as they're quiet and do what we tell them to do. And, come to our conferences and stuff.

We'll call them Asians of center.