Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

Chazz · 07-29-2011, 10:55 AM

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?

Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

Apocalipstic · 07-29-2011, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazz

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?

Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

Carried out to it's logical conclusion MoC ends up being yet another covert way to put women in their places...just like it always has been.

It pisses me OFF.

Or that is what it sounds like to me. That being Trans is preferable to being women.

Chazz · 07-29-2011, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Carried out to it's logical conclusion MoC ends up being yet another covert way to put women in their places...just like it always has been.

It pisses me OFF.

What's samatta, you don't like Wyoming?

Apocalipstic · 07-29-2011, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazz

What's samatta, you don't like Wyoming?

I am sure it is quite lovely, but why we gotta move?

Chazz · 07-29-2011, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I am sure it is quite lovely, but why we gotta move?

'Cause we were told too. Don't be difficult.

You don't wanna be seen as a non-compliant woman, do you.

Pack a bag. I'll pick you up in the Winnebago in ten.

BullDog · 07-29-2011, 11:15 AM

Well a group for butch women was started on Facebook. Hundreds of butches joined. Of course we were charged with being exclusionary.

Kobi · 07-29-2011, 11:55 AM

I have three ideas to cover here but I need to split them up for clarity purposes.

First, I would love to discuss the differences in leadership style between males and females but I am reluctant to do so in regards to BV specifically.

Aside from the 2 points of reference that were provided to us, I dont know the organization, the history or the players. I suspect there are elements of truths on each side. I dont feel informed enough to be able to speak to their specific hierarchy.

I can say thank you to Chazz for the feminist leadership info....even if it was by a name that I would presume is male.

In my personal experience, I can attest to feeling, witnessing and being part of the difference of leadership styles between women and men. I have found female leadership to be more process oriented and male leadership to be more outcome oriented.

However, the context of the group being lead has always played into the picture. Not all female lead groups are process oriented, nor male lead groups outcome oriented. The purpose of the group or meeting does determine which style of leadership works best in a given situation.

In my personal experience, issues related to women, and in this case it is female id lesbian butches, is best left to leadership by women. Males cannot understand the issues of a woman/lesbian in quite the same way as a woman/lesbian can. Most males reqardless of their origins, still cannot grasp the concept of inherent male privilege. Thats a problem for mixed gender groups.

So, to me, having a male/masculine identity/person speak for me or be a leader for my issues as a woman/lesbian is a huge step back in time to a place I dont want to go.

In the same vein, having a female/lesbian lead or speak for male/masculine essentially straight people would also be problematic.

Thinking one can merge the two into something with commonalities essentially negates the beauty and desirability of their differences. That is problematic as well.

This is a very complex thing.

Chazz · 07-29-2011, 11:08 AM

Maybe butch women should start an organization called Uzbek Voices and presume to speak for them.

We'll let Uzbeks join of course as long as they're quiet and do what we tell them to do. And, come to our conferences and stuff.

We'll call them Asians of center.

JustJo · 07-29-2011, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazz

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?

Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

It's right here (a little to the left) in the center...

Personally, I think Kansas is in the center.....

Heart · 07-29-2011, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazz

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?

Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

See my post in this thread:

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...264#post387264

07-29-2011, 11:15 AM	#6
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,640 Times in 4,463 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Well a group for butch women was started on Facebook. Hundreds of butches joined. Of course we were charged with being exclusionary. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

07-29-2011, 10:55 AM	#1
Chazz Member How Do You Identify?: cisBUTCH Preferred Pronoun?: hey Relationship Status: Single - gave up the farce Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York Posts: 265 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 103 Thanked 756 Times in 189 Posts Rep Power: 8194252	Ummm, just though of this..... If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes? Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.) But wait.... Where was the "center"? Oh yeah, Wyoming. Where's Wyoming?

07-29-2011, 11:55 AM	#7
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,617 Times in 7,640 Posts Rep Power: 21474860	I have three ideas to cover here but I need to split them up for clarity purposes. First, I would love to discuss the differences in leadership style between males and females but I am reluctant to do so in regards to BV specifically. Aside from the 2 points of reference that were provided to us, I dont know the organization, the history or the players. I suspect there are elements of truths on each side. I dont feel informed enough to be able to speak to their specific hierarchy. I can say thank you to Chazz for the feminist leadership info....even if it was by a name that I would presume is male. In my personal experience, I can attest to feeling, witnessing and being part of the difference of leadership styles between women and men. I have found female leadership to be more process oriented and male leadership to be more outcome oriented. However, the context of the group being lead has always played into the picture. Not all female lead groups are process oriented, nor male lead groups outcome oriented. The purpose of the group or meeting does determine which style of leadership works best in a given situation. In my personal experience, issues related to women, and in this case it is female id lesbian butches, is best left to leadership by women. Males cannot understand the issues of a woman/lesbian in quite the same way as a woman/lesbian can. Most males reqardless of their origins, still cannot grasp the concept of inherent male privilege. Thats a problem for mixed gender groups. So, to me, having a male/masculine identity/person speak for me or be a leader for my issues as a woman/lesbian is a huge step back in time to a place I dont want to go. In the same vein, having a female/lesbian lead or speak for male/masculine essentially straight people would also be problematic. Thinking one can merge the two into something with commonalities essentially negates the beauty and desirability of their differences. That is problematic as well. This is a very complex thing.

07-29-2011, 11:08 AM	#8
Chazz Member How Do You Identify?: cisBUTCH Preferred Pronoun?: hey Relationship Status: Single - gave up the farce Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York Posts: 265 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 103 Thanked 756 Times in 189 Posts Rep Power: 8194252	Maybe butch women should start an organization called Uzbek Voices and presume to speak for them. We'll let Uzbeks join of course as long as they're quiet and do what we tell them to do. And, come to our conferences and stuff. We'll call them Asians of center.