Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Kobi]

I have three ideas to cover here but I need to split them up for clarity purposes.

First, I would love to discuss the differences in leadership style between males and females but I am reluctant to do so in regards to BV specifically.

Aside from the 2 points of reference that were provided to us, I dont know the organization, the history or the players. I suspect there are elements of truths on each side. I dont feel informed enough to be able to speak to their specific hierarchy.

I can say thank you to Chazz for the feminist leadership info....even if it was by a name that I would presume is male.

In my personal experience, I can attest to feeling, witnessing and being part of the difference of leadership styles between women and men. I have found female leadership to be more process oriented and male leadership to be more outcome oriented.

However, the context of the group being lead has always played into the picture. Not all female lead groups are process oriented, nor male lead groups outcome oriented. The purpose of the group or meeting does determine which style of leadership works best in a given situation.

In my personal experience, issues related to women, and in this case it is female id lesbian butches, is best left to leadership by women. Males cannot understand the issues of a woman/lesbian in quite the same way as a woman/lesbian can. Most males reqardless of their origins, still cannot grasp the concept of inherent male privilege. Thats a problem for mixed gender groups.

So, to me, having a male/masculine identity/person speak for me or be a leader for my issues as a woman/lesbian is a huge step back in time to a place I dont want to go.

In the same vein, having a female/lesbian lead or speak for male/masculine essentially straight people would also be problematic.

Thinking one can merge the two into something with commonalities essentially negates the beauty and desirability of their differences. That is problematic as well.

This is a very complex thing.

[Kobi]

My second point has to do with the new world order and no Chazz, its not about women/female id butches taking a step back LOL.

The trans community is growing by leaps and bounds. As more and more folks come to grips with their true selves and take steps to create their true selves it will grow even more. When children as young as 2 or 3 are showing and stating gender issues, it is a reality that cannot be ignored.

Basic change theory postulates that a change in one part of a system requires a change in another. It has to change. It cannot not change.

We have seen glimpses of just some of the issues that need to be grappled with on this site. We have seen issues related to transgender athletes in sports, to bathrooms, to locker rooms, to educational facilities and opportunities, to anti discrimination laws, the Michigan Womens Music festival, Olivia cruises etc.

The part that gets complicated is we have a fast moving changing reality and are ill equipped, presently, to incorporate that into everyday living at a pace that keeps up. Kind of like technology is leap years ahead of law.

The butch-femme community talks a lot about getting rid of a binary system of gender yet we cling to it! Butch femme connotates a certain thing. So one is expected to be one or the other. Seeing not too many guys are clamoring for the femme label, it is the butch label that is taking the brunt of things.

In the new world order, I fully expect butch-femme as we know it will become obsolete. It will take time, in-fighting, a lot of hurt feelings, before something new reflecting the new reality will emerge.

Change is hard on everyone and resisted at all costs. It is the pain/pleasure principle (principle not dynamic). My opinion is, clinging to binary system in butch femme is clinging to the known out of fear of the unknown. So, rather than work toward something new, we are seemingly trying to rehash the old. It's familiar. It's comfortable even tho it is in an uncomfortable way.

Lesbians/female id butches will fight back when they are grouped with male id's. It should be expected. Lesbians/female id's will look/go elsewhere when male id's seek to speak for or define them. It's logical. Women will react when male power and privilige negatively impacts them. It's viseral in this day and age.

It's a process and a very uncomfortable one. But what we have here is a freakin pie. Instead of 2 pieces, you cut it into three or four or five. You dont have to stab at one another or carve out one piece into many. You have to reconfigure the entire pie. It can be a win-win proposition.

We will get there. But I am not looking forward to the process.

[Apocalipstic]

Kobi, just trying to understand your very interesting second point post.

Butch and Femme will be obsolete? Do you think those of us who ID as Butch Lesbians should change to be men and Femme Lesbians should try and change to appeal to straight men or to be closer to center...in Kansas or Wyoming?

Because to me it sounds like yet again feminine women have no place in Queer society which is business as usual.

Not arguing, just wanting to understand how you see this all playing out to its logical conclusion.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Kobi, just trying to understand your very interesting second point post.

Butch and Femme will be obsolete? Do you think those of us who ID as Butch Lesbians should change to be men and Femme Lesbians should try and change to appeal to straight men or to be closer to center...in Kansas or Wyoming?

Because to me it sounds like yet again feminine women have no place in Queer society which is business as usual.

Not arguing, just wanting to understand how you see this all playing out to its logical conclusion.

I think you misunderstood me.

I dont think anyone has to change who they are. Being recognized for who people are is the gist of this entire scenario to me. We all want to celebrate and live as the people we know ourselves to be. We all want our diversity to be respected and appreciated. We all want to be a recognized part of the whole.

The format, in my opinion, is going to have to change to accomodate the new reality and all it entails. And it is going to have to become non-binary in order to achieve that. It will be interesting to see what the outcome looks like.

Feminine women will always have a place in queer whatever. Female and male id butches love em, transmen love em, cismen love em, other women love em. What would we do without them?

Did you know the most central point in the lower 48 is in Smith County, Kansas, 158 miles NW of Topeka, near Lebanon? http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/KS3129/

So, is masculine of center to the left or the right?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I think you misunderstood me.

I dont think anyone has to change who they are. Being recognized for who people are is the gist of this entire scenario to me. We all want to celebrate and live as the people we know ourselves to be. We all want our diversity to be respected and appreciated. We all want to be a recognized part of the whole.

The format, in my opinion, is going to have to change to accommodate the new reality and all it entails. And it is going to have to become non-binary in order to achieve that. It will be interesting to see what the outcome looks like.

Feminine women will always have a place in queer whatever. Female and male id butches love em, transmen love em, cismen love em, other women love em. What would we do without them?

Did you know the most central point in the lower 48 is in Smith County, Kansas, 158 miles NW of Topeka, near Lebanon? http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/KS3129/

So, is masculine of center to the left or the right?

Thank you for answering, I was so confused lol.

So if we make this discussion into a radio station, you are saying we need to go to one station top 40 of all genres, not into individual teeny genre stations?

I agree that everything is changing so quickly, it is very interesting!

For some reason I was thinking of masculine of center being on the left. I wonder why?

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Thank you for answering, I was so confused lol.

So if we make this discussion into a radio station, you are saying we need to go to one station top 40 of all genres, not into individual teeny genre stations?

I agree that everything is changing so quickly, it is very interesting!

For some reason I was thinking of masculine of center being on the left. I wonder why?

If this discussion was a radio station, I would be saying get Sirius Satellite Radio! We are not in Kansas anymore. It's is a global world out there.

Left? I always equate masculine with the right.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If this discussion was a radio station, I would be saying get Sirius Satellite Radio! We are not in Kansas anymore. It's is a global world out there.

Left? I always equate masculine with the right.

When I was looking at the map, my eyes went left. Weird. lol
I am sure it means something epimystical.

Glad I asked, I thought you were saying do away with Sirius.

[Kobi]

The last piece here is from a conversation I had recently with a Femme who didnt seem to quite get why I as a female id butch was having trouble with any of this.

Feel free to add on here.

As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question.
As a female id butch, I customarily do.

As a femme, there is never a question about her preferred pronouns.
As a butch, do I prefer her/she, hym/hy, hir, he/him etc.

As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question.
Even as a female id butch, I am outed on sight.

As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is "less than masculine".
As a female id butch, I am expected to accept a male telling me my new label is "masculine of center" and be happy about it!

As a femme, she has the luxury of varying the gender of her preferred partners. She might add queer to it as a qualifier.
As a butch lesbian, it's women only.

As a femme, she will always be a femme.
As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality.

As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man.
As a butch I usually am.

As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man.
As a butch, I did. And with the emerging trans community, the message now comes from within rather than outside the community. Whether from within or without, the message is a slap in the face.

As a femme, she will never be too feminine.
As a female id butch, the message that I am not masculine or male enough is getting annoying.

There are reasons why female id lesbian butches have problems with being lumped in with males/masculine id's. Seem like pretty darn good ones to me.

[Medusa]

Kobi - Not picking on you but want to use your post as a jumping off point.

I think there are a couple of things going on here but first, let me address a couple of things in the examples given by your friend:

Originally Posted by Kobi

As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question.
As a female id butch, I customarily do.

**Actually, I consider "Femme" to be my gender and it's been called into question many, many times out in the straight world, and sadly, in Queer space as well.

As a femme, there is never a question about her preferred pronouns.
As a butch, do I prefer her/she, hym/hy, hir, he/him etc.

**This is mostly true. I am always referred to as "she". Don't ask me about the times when I am referred to as "Mrs." and then someone will inevitably assume my last name is my "husband's".

As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question.
Even as a female id butch, I am outed on sight.

**Blending into mainstream isn't something that feels good to me and I don't celebrate it. It's Femme Invisibility 101.

As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is "less than masculine".
As a female id butch, I am expected to accept a male telling me my new label is "masculine of center" and be happy about it!

**Nope, nobody telling me that I'm "less than masculine", but I'm not the "right kind of woman" by most measures of homogenous society.

As a femme, she has the luxury of varying the gender of her preferred partners. She might add queer to it as a qualifier.
As a butch lesbian, it's women only.

**Varying the gender? What does that mean? Does it mean *I* get to choose who I fuck? Or does that mean that I am choosing what pronoun to call my partner? Or are you saying that Butches don't fuck men, Transmen, or Gay boys?

As a femme, she will always be a femme.
As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality.

**While I *am* always a Femme, I am often thrown into a pot with straight women. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with straight females and fetishized pornography.

As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man.
As a butch I usually am.

**I may not be mistaken for a man, but I am almost always mistaken for a straight woman (unless in Queer space)

As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man.
As a butch, I did. And with the emerging trans community, the message now comes from within rather than outside the community. Whether from within or without, the message is a slap in the face.

**As a femme, I've never been told I "just wanted to be a man" but I have been told more times than I can count that my attraction to Butches means that I "should just fuck men". That message is also a slap in the face.


As a femme, she will never be too feminine.
As a female id butch, the message that I am not masculine or male enough is getting annoying.

**Until she is. The message that I am ditzy, stupid, fluffy, a helpless babygirl, or really a straight woman who just wants her pussy eaten is also getting annoying.

I illustrate a lot of this because I think that there is a message being fed to BOTH Butches and Femmes not only by the world at large but also (as illustrated with BV) in Queer space.

The message is that until we fall in line with homogenous idealism where womenfolk need to sit their asses down and shut the fuck up, we are going to be treated with waggled fingers, a wall of silencing shushes, or heatpatting.

The message is that when we stand against it, we are "Bitches", "Feminazis", "Separatists", "Troublemakers", "Angry", "Humorless", "Crusty", or my VERY favorite..."In need of a good fucking".

The message is that we are not acceptable just the way we are.

The message is that the only "acceptable" is one that values male over female, no matter the context.

The message is that, as Butches and Femmes, we are somehow "broken".

The message is that while we are climbing over the backs of Butches and Femmes to build a Gender Mountain, we step in the face of our own history, our own spirit.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I illustrate a lot of this because I think that there is a message being fed to BOTH Butches and Femmes not only by the world at large but also (as illustrated with BV) in Queer space.

The message is that until we fall in line with homogenous idealism where womenfolk need to sit their asses down and shut the fuck up, we are going to be treated with waggled fingers, a wall of silencing shushes, or heatpatting.

The message is that when we stand against it, we are "Bitches", "Feminazis", "Separatists", "Troublemakers", "Angry", "Humorless", "Crusty", or my VERY favorite..."In need of a good fucking".

The message is that we are not acceptable just the way we are.

The message is that the only "acceptable" is one that values male over female, no matter the context.

The message is that, as Butches and Femmes, we are somehow "broken".

The message is that while we are climbing over the backs of Butches and Femmes to build a Gender Mountain, we step in the face of our own history, our own spirit.

Medusa,

You raise an some excellent points!

As a butch, I seldom see or understand the issues Femmes face in the same way they do. I apologize for displaying my ignorance of your reality.

Does show why one group shouldnt speak for another tho doesnt it?

The scope of this is quite amazing.

[Apocalipstic]

I get your point Kobi and don't want to lump you into anything, or take away from how difficult it is to be Butch but have to say that being Femme is not a picnic either.

While as Femme we do pass (whether or not we want to) in the straight community, we do not have a comfortable place in the LBGQIetc community.

What if as Femmes we are Lesbians and it's women for us too and the number of women who like Femmes seems to be seriously dwindling?

[Apocalipstic]

ps..and as Butch I bet you are not ever asked if your GF is your daughter even when they are the same age as you. lol

What I am saying is that we are in this together. Butches and Femmes I mean and even though we may be out of style, I think some of us will always be around.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Kobi

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="2"]
The last piece here is from a conversation I had recently with a Femme who didnt seem to quite get why I as a female id butch was having trouble with any of this.

Feel free to add on here.

As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question.
As a female id butch, I customarily do.

i have -- because i am a lesbian.

As a femme, she will always be a femme.
As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality.

All lesbians are given the you are not a real woman shit.

]

As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man.


i am frequently. i am apple shaped. i am also an androgynous femme. Lots of STRAIGHT women get mistaken for men too.

As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man.

Bullshit. i am a dyke. i was told that many times by ignorant people. i was told i just couldn't accept my femininity or my place in the world as a woman.


As a femme, she will never be too feminine.

HUH??? How many femmes have been ignored or ridiculed by dykes for their femininity?????

------------------------------------------

[Heart]

Kobi - I don't think I get how your breakdown of the different experiences of femmes and butches is related to the discussion at hand -- (and I have some issues with what you posted), but I do agree that because queer femme identities are not parsed/policed in quite the same manner as butch identities, femmes have not had to deal with the same internal divisions in queer spaces. The post I linked to above speaks to this in more detail.

Heart

[Heart]

As I said, butches are facing unique challenges in terms of the divisions and power struggles currently surfacing between women/female folk and trans-masculine folk. But i couldn't quite let the list below stand.

"As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question."
I have my queerness called into question routinely.

"As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question."
"Passing" involves risk and erasure. It's called invisibility and it's oppressive.

"As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is less than masculine".
Femmes are female and are subjected to male domination in various forms.

"As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man."
I will be mistaken for straight.

"As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man."
I will be told I just haven't had the right man give it to me good.

"As a femme, she will never be too feminine."
My femininity will be objectified.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by from BV site

"Is BUTCH Voices trying to tell me how I identify, what if I am BUTCH and not Masculine of Center?
(answer)-No, BUTCH Voices affirms the ability for each person to self-identify in a way that fits them best. When BUTCH Voices uses the term Masculine of Center (MoC) the intention is to quickly and succinctly summarize who we are at large. For many in our community, the label BUTCH is not inclusive, but we all unite at our 2nd National Conference under the big BUTCH Voices tent, because of our shared experiences."

If Butch wasn't good enough to "quickly and succinctly summarize who we are" why the hell is it called butchvoices? And what makes "masculine of center" any kind of a better summary especially for women ID Female ID Butches, a lot of Tomboys and the like... or even flamer butches etc etc etc etc etc etc.....? My Dad on the other hand might enjoy the conference, since he'd fit the bill "masculine of center" I'd think better than tons butches for crap sake...

I mean hmmm, duh, it fit a few better who had the ability to change it... I mean seriously, c'mon. Seems like a personal issue of a few that's been thrust upon everyone else... and who loses... the same ppl who've been losing all along.

Sry for jumping in out of nowhere and blahing all over the place but damn, pisses me off... :/

[Martina]

i am offended by that. THat part about feminine women always having a place in queerdom. How many femme posts do you have to read to hear a story about a femme who was alienated from a lesbian gathering because of her femininity. It may be the most commonly shared narrative among femmes.

i also am not loved by all transmen or feminine lesbians or even all butches. Many transmen date men. i have heard a few ridicule femmes with the "ewwww" attitude. And femmes have given me that same "eww" because i date femmes. Yadda yadda.

COME ON. Jeez. i am pretty annoyed.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

Kobi - I don't think I get how your breakdown of the different experiences of femmes and butches is related to the discussion at hand -- (and I have some issues with what you posted), but I do agree that because queer femme identities are not parsed/policed in quite the same manner as butch identities, femmes have not had to deal with the same internal divisions in queer spaces. The post I linked to above in speaks to this in more detail.

Heart

Heart,

My point, and I probably didnt pick the best avenue for it, is simply that female id lesbian butches are being inundated with and pushed out of the picture by male/masculine.

Your suggestion for organizing around issues rather than identities makes a lot of sense to me. These commonalities are less explosive and more global in nature.

I dont understand this:

"And make no mistake, lesbians of the 70s had a hand in pushing butches out of women's communities. This is one of the failures/faults of the lesbian-feminist movement."

I was a lesbian of the 70's. I didnt see "butches" being pushed out of the womens communities. I did see "male id's" being pushed out and it seemed to make sense to me. I did see the lesbian feminist community become less traditionally defined i.e. less butch-femme/heteronormative imitation kind of thing in favor of a more woman defined forms of existence.

I dont understand how it was a failure/fault of the lesbian-feminist movement to pursue a lesbian-feminist defined existence. Is it because we didnt think including men/male/non-female masculine into a lesbian thing was a wise thing to do? Please explain.

Could you also explain what "butch is now seen as too female" means? To me, I like that butch seems to female. Then give butch back to the females. If non females are more comfortable with masculine of center, that's fine. Just dont ask me to be that.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I dont understand this:

"And make no mistake, lesbians of the 70s had a hand in pushing butches out of women's communities. This is one of the failures/faults of the lesbian-feminist movement."

I dont understand how it was a failure/fault of the lesbian-feminist movement to pursue a lesbian-feminist defined existence. Is it because we didnt think including men/male/non-female masculine into a lesbian thing was a wise thing to do? Please explain.

Could you also explain what "butch is now seen as too female" means? To me, I like that butch seems to female. Then give butch back to the females. If non females are more comfortable with masculine of center, that's fine. Just dont ask me to be that.

I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

[Chazz]

The problem, as I see it, is that the high echelon of "Butch Voices" has a different world view and agenda than woman identified butches. How could they not? It's okay; they're entitled.

Furthermore, the "Butch Voices" folks are speaking a different language. They're speak GENDERese - a language borne of gender theory.

Woman identified butches tend to speak in SEXUAL ORIENTATION-ese - a language based in sex/biology, lesbian/gay rights, and, in some cases, Feminism. That's okay, too.

What is NOT okay is the high echelon of "Butch Voices" (transgenderists) presuming to speak for BUTCHES. Not all butches - butches, period.

Butch is a term that speaks to sexual orientation, sex/ biology (femaleness) - not transgenderism. It's a full time, life long identity - not a way station on the road to maledom.

"BUTCH" has a long, hard fought, and precious HERitage that has nothing to do with transgenderism, except to the extent that the lesbian community has ceded use of the term to those who see it as a transitional, oft times, a convenient identifier on the way to maleness.

Butch is not that. It's a life-long identity that has to do with sexual orientation.

"For the life of me" seems to be the phrase in fashion, so I'll just say: For the life of me, how did a term based in sexual orientation get appropriated by folks who don't see themselves as lesbian?

Well, it's part and parcel to the imposed tagging around "cis" this and "cis" that. Now, the same folks who brought us "cis" are presuming to take ownership of (lesbian) butch identity and define that, too.

It's okay to call to call a foul, a foul. It's okay defend what rightfully belongs to you. That's not oppressive or being exclusionary. It's being self-respecting.

Vive Butch Nation.