Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

I always gravitate to the threads that are in the Lesbian Zone.
It always stuck me as odd when people wonder why there is a need for this or that kind of thread.
Coming out 35 years ago, I didn't then and still don't mind the term Lesbian. It actually is my preference in terms referring to myself....I tack on Butch and have in the past used WI (Woman Identified) and joke that it did not mean Wisconsin . FIB..... hmmm.. I assume there is a difference in being female identified and woman identified.... I really don't care. I am a Butch Lesbian.. or is it Lesbian Butch? WTH...Hi, I am Joan, aka Jo, much easier I am the person to whom you are speaking.

Originally Posted by Kobi

Welcome Jo! I hear you. It struck me odd as well.

Then again, we all had different experiences, opportunities, and needs in developing our own unique "queerness". These are reflected in so many different ways in our lives and identities these days.

The complexities to which I am exposed to via the internet never cease to amaze and confuse me. I like simple. Then again, my definition of simple may not be the same as someone else's.

I have always been comfortable with lesbian. It seems the more accurate description of my reality and experience. I have tried adding qualifiers to it but they just don't feel right/accurate and they can feel very confining to me. Using lesbian, to me, gives me more freedom to express who I am without being locked into anything or pigeonholed into anything. It's liberating.

Thank you for bringing up WI (not Wisconsin). I dont know if there is a difference between WI and FI - I'm pretty sure someone knows but it sure as heck isn't me. LOL.I'd like to see more activity in the lesbian zone. I'm just not sure what direction it should/could go in. Have any suggestions?

Some people regard the term female = sex and woman = gender.

There are definitely butches who define as female, but not as women. I defined that way for many years and know quite a many butch who still does. Here the term woman is seen as being connected to a social construct, rather than it being connected to one's biology.

(Hope you were actually asking the question?)

[tapu]

SRSLY? Those are known, culturally-shared distinctions? Isn't it awfully easy for people not versed in it to screw it up?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by tapu

SRSLY? Those are known, culturally-shared distinctions? Isn't it awfully easy for people not versed in it to screw it up?

Hey, tapu. Yes, and yes! :-) Identifiers are like that.

I am going to step out of the lesbian zone. I am not looking to have a discussion on this, I was only looking to answer the question, as I think that Kobi was sincerely curious.

Have a good day.

[tapu]

Well... there's a real difference between the kind of identifiers you are listing and the set of widely used identifiers of gender and sex in our culture.

If this isn't the place to go into it, though, I'm fine with that.

Thanks DB.


ER... Wait a minute. You seem to have edited your original post on this. I've been responding to the original, where you listed more configurations of gender/sex identifiers.

[loremar]

Yes, people should have the right to free thoughts and enjoy there life the way they want it to live. You can't bar someone's freedom unless you have good reasons to do so. Lesbians have nothing against other innocent people, they just want to be lesbians, so let them be lesbians.

[Chazz]

For the sake of clarity, and in the the spirit of reclaiming lesbian heritage and grammatical correctness - neoPolitical Correctness be damned (I never signed on for that, anyway):


female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight.

Using adjectives as nouns is not good grammar, nor is it good politics. It just muddies the water. Non-lesbians, who lay claim to lesbian descriptors, are the ones obliged to clarify through expanded labeling.

[tapu]

Damn. You're good.

I'd object (mildly) to your adj/noun edict on a number of grounds--most notably, that you blur the distinction while making it--but I think this is nicely laid out.

Question: Sex = gender? They were distinguished above, I believe, at one point, but (without doing any research) I think they do equate.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Chazz

For the sake of clarity, and in the the spirit of reclaiming lesbian heritage and grammatical correctness - neoPolitical Correctness be damned (I never signed on for that, anyway):


female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight.

Using adjectives as nouns is not good grammar, nor is it good politics. It just muddies the water. Non-lesbians, who lay claim to lesbian descriptors, are the ones obliged to clarify through expanded labeling.

Chazz,

I think I understand your intent in posting this. However, it could be seen as a supportive thing or a controversial thing or a little bit of both.

I dont want to presume something here. So, could you elaborate a bit on your intent?

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Tapu

I'd object (mildly) to your adj/noun edict on a number of grounds--most notably, that you blur the distinction while making it--but I think this is nicely laid out.

Question: Sex = gender? They were distinguished above, I believe, at one point, but (without doing any research) I think they do equate.

No, sex and gender are not the same things; they do not equate.

SEX refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

GENDER describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine. Gender is culturally constructed and varies from culture to culture.

Here's why this matters: An Editorial from The Journal of Applied Physiology

The continuing dedication by physiologists to sex-based and women’s health research comes from the understanding that although females and males share many physiological similarities, they are fundamentally different. This is a basic biological principle in all species in which sexes exist, and there is an obvious need to explore the differentiation that the evolution of sex has afforded humans and their biology, but female and male sex-based research is not the same as gender-based research. The point is that avoiding synonymous use of the terms sex and gender serves to avoid misusing the concepts of sex and gender across disciplines of science. In summary, it is appropriate to use the term sex when referring to the biology of human and animal subjects, and the term gender is reserved for reference to the self-identity and/or social representation of an individual.

Some people many not care about women's health research, but I do personally and professionally. Historically, it has lagged far behind male health research, including in funding. Mixing metaphors, syntax, nouns with verbs, adjectives and neologisms may be "play" for some people, but some of us need to know who we are talking about when we read research data. Objective reality has an essential role for some of us. Me, for one.

Originally Posted by Thinker

Like a few others have stated, some of the information is in conflict with my own definitions. For example, the first two entries... I see male and female as biological sex assignments, but I see woman and man as gender identities.

It seems important to acknowledge that most of us here will have our own little spin on how all these terms and the grammar of it all......as well as the politics.......play out and, hopefully, we won't let those differences be a barrier in reclaiming lesbian pride (as the title suggests).

Woman and man are nouns according to every dictionary I've consulted.

Yep, (some) people within the LGBTQ community have played with definitions, put spin on them, created entirely new vernaculars, neologisms.... This is, I believe, what has led to the current BV controversy. This word play has not served all of us equally well.

They who presume to name, presume to own. All this presuming has led to the disenfranchisement of female identified butches, lesbian women and Feminists in many quarters. It's been incremental, but it's been profound. Just the other night, I went to bed a butch and woke up "masculine of center".

So, I'm keeping it simple. I'm sticking to the English dictionary and my HERitage as a lesbian/butch//Feminist. Other people can do what they want, but they cannot force or intimidate me into going along with it.

Originally Posted by Kobi

Chazz,

I think I understand your intent in posting this. However, it could be seen as a supportive thing or a controversial thing or a little bit of both.

I dont want to presume something here. So, could you elaborate a bit on your intent?

I'm good with a little bit of both.

[Kobi]

My wish to rekindle lesbian pride sans the qualifiers is multifold. Part is feeling invisible as a woman and a lesbian. Part is feeling like a guest in my community as a butch. Part is feeling woman and lesbian have somehow become passe and are being phased out in the scheme of things.

My real life world is a world of lesbian women. I dont even know if there is a trans community/group here. I remember as a young woman how invigorated and validated I felt when I found the lesbian and feminist communities. I remember how proud I was to be part of the new trailblazers that would usher in a new era of creativity, development, and activism for women and lesbians. I remember soaking up every bit of information I could get my hands on, attending all the lectures, the events etc. I hadnt felt anything like it before or since.

Lately, I have been looking on the net for "lesbian" web sites or even sites that may be of interest to "lesbians". I wasnt looking for the old stuff. I was looking for the new stuff for the generations that came after us.

It has been a disappointing search thus far. I am finding many women run, lesbian in the title web sites. I was surprised to see a membership of females and males - I expect it in butch-femme but not general sites. I see many stories on beefing up (no pun intended) definitions across a wide spectrum, I see some definate blurring and almost interchangability in gender and orientation, much on relationships, fashion or lack there of, a fair amount on trans, a lot of masculine of center, a lot on variations of femme stuff ( the right words for this escapes me), a bunch on how to get laid (bookmarked those in case anyone is interested).

I didnt see anything on lesbian identity sans qualifiers, little on feminism, little on herstory.

There might be more of what I am looking for on FB but the few times I ventured there it seemed hard to navigate and pretty darn boring.

Even when chatting in real life with youngins today, they can parrot much on womens studies but it seems to be an academic exercise rather than a part of their history or their identities. They take so much for granted that we old farts had to fight for.

They have so much freedom to explore and so many more options/choices than were available back in my day. Yet they seem so unconnected to it.

At 55, I am too tired to be an activist anymore. I cant stay up late enough for the meetings.

So who's watching the store?

[OS Butch]

Well, I am not an English Major or writer nor do I know much about grammatics or being politically correct for that matter, but I don't agree with a couple of the items. So, maybe I will say this is how they are for me.

An adjective modifies a noun or a pronoun by describing, identifying, or quantifying words. An adjective usually precedes the noun or the pronoun which it modifies.

A noun is a word used to name a person, animal, place, thing, and abstract idea.

In that light, both Butch and Lesbian are adjectives for me as they describe parts of me, not all of me....Butch Lesbian Woman

Hey! Is that a new acronym? BLW? Cool beans

Originally Posted by Chazz

For the sake of clarity, and in the the spirit of reclaiming lesbian heritage and grammatical correctness - neoPolitical Correctness be damned (I never signed on for that, anyway):


female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight.

Using adjectives as nouns is not good grammar, nor is it good politics. It just muddies the water. Non-lesbians, who lay claim to lesbian descriptors, are the ones obliged to clarify through expanded labeling.

[OS Butch]

Oh, I might add I really like the book" Butch as a Noun"

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Chazz

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

I am not trying to derail the thread but...

Transgender is an adjective, not a verb. People aren't transgendering.

Also, people aren't transgendered even though it is used all the time. i have even caught my self using it early on and still catch myself using transgendered at times. It can be insulting to many people within the transgender community.

It may seem like semantics but it is important.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Chazz

For the sake of clarity, and in the the spirit of reclaiming lesbian heritage and grammatical correctness - neoPolitical Correctness be damned (I never signed on for that, anyway):


female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight.

Using adjectives as nouns is not good grammar, nor is it good politics. It just muddies the water. Non-lesbians, who lay claim to lesbian descriptors, are the ones obliged to clarify through expanded labeling.

I entered this discussion this morning as a moderator because we had a community member ask us to keep an eye on the conversation for fear things might get a little heated. I say that because I want to be clear that I do not identify as a lesbian. Even when that was the community I felt was a "best fit" for me, I was not able to embrace that particular identity. I tried, but I knew it was not an authentic reflection of who I was as a person.

So in coming here to catch up on things this morning, I read the post quoted above and am curious, Chazz, if you pasted this information from somewhere else or if this is how you see things?

Like a few others have stated, some of the information is in conflict with my own definitions. For example, the first two entries... I see male and female as biological sex assignments, but I see woman and man as gender identities.

It seems important to acknowledge that most of us here will have our own little spin on how all these terms and the grammar of it all......as well as the politics.......play out and, hopefully, we won't let those differences be a barrier in reclaiming lesbian pride (as the title suggests).

Thinker (entered as a moderator but posting as a member)

[Kobi]

When I started this thread, I hoped it would not turn into a debate of terminology, or who owns what words, or who has the current rights to whatever.

I am a freakin lesbian - one of those relic women who wants to be with women who want to be with other women.

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

I just wanted a place to be where others like me can get together and say "hey yea we are still here and we are still ok and we still have a voice and we're not going away."

Is that too much to ask?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Good Morning Kobi, I'm sorry you are feeling some frustration this morning regarding how you are not being seen.. How can we help you not feel this way? What is it you have envisioned for this thread? Are you seeking women with lesbian being their only identifier? How can we help you not feel so alone?

You aren't there's lots of lesbians here I'm sure soon this thread will be full of women embracing their pride right along with you!

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Kobi

When I started this thread, I hoped it would not turn into a debate of terminology, or who owns what words, or who has the current rights to whatever.

I hear you. I hate, hate, hate the political mechanics, too.

But some of us, not necessarily all of us, recognize the backward motion that is taking place in the community which HAS RESULTED IN A LOSS OF OUR LESBIAN PRIDE and HERITAGE.

But, I get it. This parsing of terms is a drag. Is it ever ! ! ! ! However, one must go where the problem lies; at least part of the problem.

Reassigning meaning to words lesbians identify with effects and changes how we imagine ourselves. Language matters. There are those within the community who know this and have been studiously chip, chip, chipping away at language while the rest of us have been building a tent.

When 1 + 1 stops equaling 2, and 1 + 2 starts equaling 4, we're not communicating. And when someone says: Hey, we're not communicating, and another person says: Hush up, you're wrecking the tent, kumbaya. That's anti-communication - i.e. a subtle form of censorship. I don't know how to reclaim pride, build a tent and listen to the death knells of my identifiers all at once. I can cede space; I will not cede my identity.

But, I get it. The mechanics of communication are boring, even anxiety provoking. It's so much easier to say: "Let's get along, shall we?", as we sidestep certain things. Let's not, then, do a Chicken Little when we finally notice that the meaning of lesbianism/Womanism/Feminism is fadding into obscurity. Otherwise, what's the need for Reclaiming Lesbian Pride?

Kobi, you and I are on the same page about most things. Where we may diverge is about how to reclaim lesbian pride while walking around a linguistic elephant in the room, in a thread about reclaiming pride. There is clutter underfoot - fractured words, recalcitrant nouns, spurious adjectives.... I don't know how to have this conversation, balanced on one toe, while meaning is drained from the very words we use to define ourselves, even as we speak.

Originally Posted by Kobi

I am a freakin lesbian - one of those relic women who wants to be with women who want to be with other women.

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

I just wanted a place to be where others like me can get together and say "hey yea we are still here and we are still ok and we still have a voice and we're not going away."

Is that too much to ask?

NO, it isn't too much to ask.

But, I do have a question.... Who's "voice" are we speaking in? Ours, or those who do not ID as lesbian women?

If your post was directed at those who would recalculate our language for us, kumbaya. I got your back.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Kobi

When I started this thread, I hoped it would not turn into a debate of terminology, or who owns what words, or who has the current rights to whatever.

I am a freakin lesbian - one of those relic women who wants to be with women who want to be with other women.

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

I just wanted a place to be where others like me can get together and say "hey yea we are still here and we are still ok and we still have a voice and we're not going away."

Is that too much to ask?

I asked if it was too much to ask. From the deterioration of this thread, it is pretty clear it is too much to ask.

As it is just a matter of time before the rest of the "crew" is summoned to feed into what some want this to be rather than what the intent was, I wish you all a pleasant evening.

[I'mOneToo]

Hi Kobi,

I'm one too! A proud Lesbian, that is. Wish I could find my old button that says that, which was purchased probably sometime back in the early 80's at a women's bookstore (dyke heaven, back in the day). It's around here somewhere. I'm a reclaimer too. Never lost my self, just needs to be occasionally tuned in. Like when you are in the car, and the radio starts to receive static... just turn the button back to where the reception is clear and strong. Lesbian Feminism has informed my consciousness from an early age, and can't imagine tuning it out, or needing to. The fine tuning of my Butch self, is not my main focus in life. It's just what it is, not an affectation but my unadorned unassailable presence. I could lose my boots, or pants, or boxer briefs, and still be Butch.

But like a three-legged stool -- Lesbian/Feminist/Woman -- if any of those were removed I would fall down. There have been many splinters carved out of it and supports added underneath it, especially in recent years, but as long the three original legs remain in place I will always have a place to sit.

Originally Posted by Kobi

When I started this thread, I hoped it would not turn into a debate of terminology, or who owns what words, or who has the current rights to whatever.

I am a freakin lesbian - one of those relic women who wants to be with women who want to be with other women.

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

I just wanted a place to be where others like me can get together and say "hey yea we are still here and we are still ok and we still have a voice and we're not going away."

Is that too much to ask?

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Some people regard the term female = sex and woman = gender.

There are definitely butches who define as female, but not as women. They often see butch as their gender.

Just like there are some who identify as female (their sex) , as a butch (their gender), and as a woman (their gender).

Hopes that helped (I am assuming you were actually wondering?). :-)

Thanks Dapper! I knew someone would have the answer.

This kind of illustrates why I prefer to stick with lesbian - by todays standards, I think, it indicates quite clearly gender, sex, and orientation in one word.

Then again, I could be wrong about that too. LOL. I should see if there is a remedial lesbian course somewhere.