Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Chazz

For the sake of clarity, and in the the spirit of reclaiming lesbian heritage and grammatical correctness - neoPolitical Correctness be damned (I never signed on for that, anyway):


female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight.

Using adjectives as nouns is not good grammar, nor is it good politics. It just muddies the water. Non-lesbians, who lay claim to lesbian descriptors, are the ones obliged to clarify through expanded labeling.

I entered this discussion this morning as a moderator because we had a community member ask us to keep an eye on the conversation for fear things might get a little heated. I say that because I want to be clear that I do not identify as a lesbian. Even when that was the community I felt was a "best fit" for me, I was not able to embrace that particular identity. I tried, but I knew it was not an authentic reflection of who I was as a person.

So in coming here to catch up on things this morning, I read the post quoted above and am curious, Chazz, if you pasted this information from somewhere else or if this is how you see things?

Like a few others have stated, some of the information is in conflict with my own definitions. For example, the first two entries... I see male and female as biological sex assignments, but I see woman and man as gender identities.

It seems important to acknowledge that most of us here will have our own little spin on how all these terms and the grammar of it all......as well as the politics.......play out and, hopefully, we won't let those differences be a barrier in reclaiming lesbian pride (as the title suggests).

Thinker (entered as a moderator but posting as a member)

[Kobi]

When I started this thread, I hoped it would not turn into a debate of terminology, or who owns what words, or who has the current rights to whatever.

I am a freakin lesbian - one of those relic women who wants to be with women who want to be with other women.

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

I just wanted a place to be where others like me can get together and say "hey yea we are still here and we are still ok and we still have a voice and we're not going away."

Is that too much to ask?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Good Morning Kobi, I'm sorry you are feeling some frustration this morning regarding how you are not being seen.. How can we help you not feel this way? What is it you have envisioned for this thread? Are you seeking women with lesbian being their only identifier? How can we help you not feel so alone?

You aren't there's lots of lesbians here I'm sure soon this thread will be full of women embracing their pride right along with you!

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Good Morning Kobi, I'm sorry you are feeling some frustration this morning regarding how you are not being seen.. How can we help you not feel this way? What is it you have envisioned for this thread? Are you seeking women with lesbian being their only identifier? How can we help you not feel so alone?

You aren't there's lots of lesbians here I'm sure soon this thread will be full of women embracing their pride right along with you!

Thank you for your kindness. My frustration is getting in the way of my being able to answer you at the moment. Let me stew on this a bit.

[tapu]

Lesbian is a weird word. I don't mean the semantics of it, and how we're trying to define or understand it. I mean orthographically. You just don't see the letter l, s, b together in a word much. I remember how, right before and after I came out, my eyes would dart to words like Lebanese and Lisbon in the news or wherever. It's a stand-out letter sequence for me.

When I first started claiming my identity, I said I was gay. I was a gay woman. (I was not, however, a gay, which I think is derogatory, but is becoming more neutral in the plural, e.g., "Gays today want....")

There are still one-off situations where I balk at saying lesbian. Like, to an elderly person. Or too-loudly in a cafe. I don't know whether I don't want to ruin someone's lunch or what, and while I think I should analyze that fear in myself I don't much feel like it right now.

Well, those are my thoughts, and nothing more, about being and calling myself a lesbian. Thanks for a forum where I can explore it.

[ScandalAndy]

I'm a lesbian, and I'm proud of that. I feel I fought hard to earn the right to identify as a lesbian. That being said, I also love transmen and androgynous folks, as well as gender queer beings. I don't think my lesbian identity interferes with that, though.

[TickledPink]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I'm a lesbian, and I'm proud of that. I feel I fought hard to earn the right to identify as a lesbian. That being said, I also love transmen and androgynous folks, as well as gender queer beings. I don't think my lesbian identity interferes with that, though.

I am curious to know how you fought hard to earn the right to ID as Lesbian?

I know we don't thank those who have actually pioneered our rights nearly enough, those who have gone through riots, hiding who they are, those that have paved the way, so to speak. Those generationed before me. (is that a word ) ?

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Kobi

When I started this thread, I hoped it would not turn into a debate of terminology, or who owns what words, or who has the current rights to whatever.

I hear you. I hate, hate, hate the political mechanics, too.

But some of us, not necessarily all of us, recognize the backward motion that is taking place in the community which HAS RESULTED IN A LOSS OF OUR LESBIAN PRIDE and HERITAGE.

But, I get it. This parsing of terms is a drag. Is it ever ! ! ! ! However, one must go where the problem lies; at least part of the problem.

Reassigning meaning to words lesbians identify with effects and changes how we imagine ourselves. Language matters. There are those within the community who know this and have been studiously chip, chip, chipping away at language while the rest of us have been building a tent.

When 1 + 1 stops equaling 2, and 1 + 2 starts equaling 4, we're not communicating. And when someone says: Hey, we're not communicating, and another person says: Hush up, you're wrecking the tent, kumbaya. That's anti-communication - i.e. a subtle form of censorship. I don't know how to reclaim pride, build a tent and listen to the death knells of my identifiers all at once. I can cede space; I will not cede my identity.

But, I get it. The mechanics of communication are boring, even anxiety provoking. It's so much easier to say: "Let's get along, shall we?", as we sidestep certain things. Let's not, then, do a Chicken Little when we finally notice that the meaning of lesbianism/Womanism/Feminism is fadding into obscurity. Otherwise, what's the need for Reclaiming Lesbian Pride?

Kobi, you and I are on the same page about most things. Where we may diverge is about how to reclaim lesbian pride while walking around a linguistic elephant in the room, in a thread about reclaiming pride. There is clutter underfoot - fractured words, recalcitrant nouns, spurious adjectives.... I don't know how to have this conversation, balanced on one toe, while meaning is drained from the very words we use to define ourselves, even as we speak.

Originally Posted by Kobi

I am a freakin lesbian - one of those relic women who wants to be with women who want to be with other women.

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

I just wanted a place to be where others like me can get together and say "hey yea we are still here and we are still ok and we still have a voice and we're not going away."

Is that too much to ask?

NO, it isn't too much to ask.

But, I do have a question.... Who's "voice" are we speaking in? Ours, or those who do not ID as lesbian women?

If your post was directed at those who would recalculate our language for us, kumbaya. I got your back.

[tapu]

<perk>

did someone call for a linguist?


(yeh, yeh, I know, it's not the kind of input you want.)

[tapu]

Eh, I got up my nerve to provide this linguistic perspective on things. I realize that pronouns are not the immediate issue, but it may point a path toward a different way of looking at identifiers. Namely, pinpointing exactly what it is we want to identify.

Imposing change on language is not usually a very successful endeavor--and yet has potential for creating societal conflicts out of proportion to the desired effects. George Orwell created an example that showed us some of the myriad problems that can result.

There is, however, a natural language shift in English right now to neutralize gender in singular 3rd person pronouns. This is the use, in the vernacular, of they, them, to signify the singular as well as the plural. These forms are making their way into casual writing already. This is a trend that is not likely to desist.

I propose that the use of they/them accomplishes more political equalization than adding invented sets of pronouns to the paradigm. Example: use hy/hys/hym and we presume we know both your sex and your gender. Whereas, they is neutral. Just as the first and second person pronouns do not distinguish, neither would the third person then.

This kind of balancing shift in a paradigm makes it likely to "take hold." It is just a matter of time.


Actually, if I should move this somewhere where it's more applicable, please let me know where that is.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Chazz

I hear you. I hate, hate, hate the political mechanics, too.

But some of us, not necessarily all of us, recognize the backward motion that is taking place in the community which HAS RESULTED IN A LOSS OF OUR LESBIAN PRIDE and HERITAGE.

But, I get it. This parsing of terms is a drag. Is it ever ! ! ! ! However, one must go where the problem lies; at least part of the problem.

Reassigning meaning to words lesbians identify with effects and changes how we imagine ourselves. Language matters. There are those within the community who know this and have been studiously chip, chip, chipping away at language while the rest of us have been building a tent.

When 1 + 1 stops equaling 2, and 1 + 2 starts equaling 4, we're not communicating. And when someone says: Hey, we're not communicating, and another person says: Hush up, you're wrecking the tent, kumbaya. That's anti-communication - i.e. a subtle form of censorship. I don't know how to reclaim pride, build a tent and listen to the death knells of my identifiers all at once. I can cede space; I will not cede my identity.

But, I get it. The mechanics of communication are boring, even anxiety provoking. It's so much easier to say: "Let's get along, shall we?", as we sidestep certain things. Let's not, then, do a Chicken Little when we finally notice that the meaning of lesbianism/Womanism/Feminism is fadding into obscurity. Otherwise, what's the need for Reclaiming Lesbian Pride?

Kobi, you and I are on the same page about most things. Where we may diverge is about how to reclaim lesbian pride while walking around a linguistic elephant in the room, in a thread about reclaiming pride. There is clutter underfoot - fractured words, recalcitrant nouns, spurious adjectives.... I don't know how to have this conversation, balanced on one toe, while meaning is drained from the very words we use to define ourselves, even as we speak.



NO, it isn't too much to ask.

But, I do have a question.... Who's "voice" are we speaking in? Ours, or those who do not ID as lesbian women?

If your post was directed at those who would recalculate our language for us, kumbaya. I got your back.

Chazz,

We think so much alike. It feels good to be on the same page as someone else.

The voice I am speaking with is the woman, lesbian, feminist voice. It is who I am and what I represent in this world.

Reclaiming lesbian pride, to me, is about being willing to stand up and be counted as a woman, as a woman who loves other women, as a woman who partners with other women, and as a woman for whom feminism and lesbianism, the unabridged version, is their guide.

Reclaiming lesbian pride, to me, is about not being willing to compromise the language of your heritage or its unique meaning. It is about claiming it, owning it, speaking up for it, defending it, and taking back the power and control surrounding it.

I would love this thread to be about those things. It would disappoint me if it turned into a debate about linguistics per se. This, to me, is not about linguistics. It is about what is behind the language and that, to me, is the crux of the matter.

Is kumbaya yes?

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Chazz,

We think so much alike. It feels good to be on the same page as someone else.

The voice I am speaking with is the woman, lesbian, feminist voice. It is who I am and what I represent in this world.

Reclaiming lesbian pride, to me, is about being willing to stand up and be counted as a woman, as a woman who loves other women, as a woman who partners with other women, and as a woman for whom feminism and lesbianism, the unabridged version, is their guide.

Reclaiming lesbian pride, to me, is about not being willing to compromise the language of your heritage or its unique meaning. It is about claiming it,
owning it, speaking up for it, defending it, and taking back the power and control surrounding it.

I would love this thread to be about those things. It would disappoint me if it turned into a debate about linguistics per se. This, to me, is not about linguistics. It is about what is behind the language and that, to me, is the crux of the matter.

Is kumbaya yes?

For me, yes, it is Kumbaya!

Very simply: Lesbian pride for me is to stand up everywhere I need to and say, "Yes, I am a woman-identified, woman-loving, feminist lesbian. No equivocating, no minimizing, no qualifying".

I have gone to hell and back to get to this place in my life. I am proud to have survived this journey. Many times I did not feel I would survive it.

My family cast me out and for 15 years none of them would speak to me because I stood up and proudly stated:

"I am a lesbian. I will always fall in love with, make love with, live my intimate life with other lesbian women".

(Maybe one qualifier: I will always fall in love & make love with butch lesbian women).

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have a question.... Where do lesbians who date all over the gender map go? What if one is a lesbian that's open to dating anyone in the queer spectrum? What happens to lesbians who've been with men? Sometimes Kobi I would of loved to claim lesbian but was told no, you're kinky, have kids with a man, to much make up, yada yada. So I claimed dyke, where can other lesbians that don't fit your view of lesbian go? Where do they go to claim their pride?

[Martina]

i am too tired to make sense. But i will try.

Whenever someone talks about defending an identity, they are in deep water. Basically, it's a battle already lost (to mix my metaphors).

Think of people in France who are fighting for a French identity that does not include women wearing the niqab. Or again the French trying to protect the purity of their language and culture. Did that work? No. It never works.

Problems with that mode of discourse:

1) You are framing it as a conflict rather than a change or evolution. You are creating two sides when there may be many or none.

2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary. France's is an anti-immigrant racism lurking behind that pride in French culture. Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia.

3) It never works.

i am proud to be a lesbian, but my version of lesbian, which is pretty mainstream for my age-group (yes, i listened to Meg Christian), wasn't everybody's then, and it's not many people's now. You can't have an official version of an identity. And an effect of defending and reclaiming IS expressing some typical or baseline set of traits that one is defending. YAY for Berkies may mean Manolos are not the footwear of the lesbian elite. I's dangerous. i have seen that with "femme." It's going on with "butch" all over.

We can't look at it as reclaiming and defending without becoming reactionary. It's inevitable.

My suggestion is that we show up as we are and love ourselves. If it's a political setting with a specific goal, then politicize the debate. But be careful about how we define ourselves.

There are lesbians here who aren't "women loving women." They are living with and loving men. They are lesbians. I myself feel liberated by that. It means there is more room for me to breathe. It means i have new sisters and brothers.

[Julie]

I celebrate my Lesbian Pride and my Lesbian Heritage.
There is, nor was there ever anything for me to reclaim.
I never gave it UP!

Even when The Lesbians called me a traitor for marrying my best friend who happened to be a gay man and attempted to throw me out of the "Club."

It is quite simple for me... As a Lesbian who LOVES Masculine Butches and only dates Masculine Butches -- I am a Lesbian.

If I were to get in an accident tomorrow and unable to move my body or feel sensation - Never again to be touched or touch another. Or if I were to choose to never date again.

I would still be a Lesbian!

Who you fuck - Who you play with - Who you date - Who you associate with...

Has nothing to do with personal identity.

I am Julie
I am a Lesbian
I am a Femme
I am a Woman
I am a Mother
I am a Daughter
I am a Partner
I am a Friend

None of the above descriptors can ever be taken away -- And again... For me.
Nothing to reclaim.
I came out in 1979 as a Lesbian and I will die a Lesbian!

In all honesty, I am sick and tired of people placing constraints on ones identity. You can't be a lesbian - your hair is too long. You can't be a lesbian, you have long nails. You can't be a lesbian, you dress like a man. You can't be a lesbian, you are out of a 50's housewife movie.

Who says?

Julie

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Martina

i am too tired to make sense. But i will try.

Whenever someone talks about defending an identity, they are in deep water. Basically, it's a battle already lost (to mix my metaphors).

Think of people in France who are fighting for a French identity that does not include women wearing the niqab. Or again the French trying to protect the purity of their language and culture. Did that work? No. It never works.

Problems with that mode of discourse:

1) You are framing it as a conflict rather than a change or evolution. You are creating two sides when there may be many or none.
2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary. France's is an anti-immigrant racism lurking behind that pride in French culture. Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia.
3) It never works.
We can't look at it as reclaiming and defending without becoming reactionary. It's inevitable.

My suggestion is that we show up as we are and love ourselves. If it's a political setting with a specific goal, then politicize the debate. But be careful about how we define ourselves.

There are lesbians here who aren't "women loving women." They are living with and loving men. They are lesbians. I myself feel liberated by that. It means there is more room for me to breathe. It means i have new sisters and brothers.

I do not mean this in a hostile, angry manner but truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man.

I am also of the Meg generation and have no problem admitting that. I guess we all can have a different definition of the same word but I would not have been disowned by my family if I had brought home a man. My parents screamed lesbian at me as though it were a filthy, ugly word and they seemed to know what a lesbian was.

Re: children. I married at 18 and 2 babies by the time I was 21. I could not admit to myself I was gay until my mid-20's. Many women come out in later life and live with women the rest of their days.

The whole trans issue confuses me. The new gender spectrum confuses me. It was not a part of my world until the planet. I may not understand it but I would defend to the end anyone's right to live their life their way. Not understanding is not the same as transphobia! The only phobia I have in my life is claustrophobia.

My definition of lesbian is as I see it for myself as I posted it and I believe that I have the the right to call it as I see it for myself in a specifically lesbian thread, or don't I? Did that change too?

I have stated before and will again: I always do my best to make "I" statements when I post.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I do not mean this in a hostile, angry manner but truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man.

I am also of the Meg generation and have no problem admitting that. I guess we all can have a different definition of the same word but I would not have been disowned by my family if I had brought home a man. My parents screamed lesbian at me as though it were a filthy, ugly word and they seemed to know what a lesbian was.

Yet here you are claiming to know - what a Lesbian is!

Re: children. I married at 18 and 2 babies by the time I was 21. I could not admit to myself I was gay until my mid-20's. Many women come out in later life and live with women the rest of their days.

Some would say even today (lesbian community) You are simply Bi-Sexual. How do you feel about that?


The whole trans issue confuses me. The new gender spectrum confuses me. It was not a part of my world until the planet. I may not understand it but I would defend to the end anyone's right to live their life their way.

My way, my definition of lesbian is as I posted it and believe I do gave the right to call it as I see it for myself.

And that is the beauty of being a Lesbian. Nobody can take this away from you. Not now and not ever.

One cannot possibly help who one falls in love with. It is a chemical and spiritual reaction. Your soul is touched on levels which are almost incomprehensible.

I know you do not understand the trans issue... I remember once upon a time, not understanding it either. Though, I was much younger than I am now. I am glad you are here now at the Planet and are learning about our very diverse queer community here.

I have never dated a male identified butch. I have always dated Female Identified Butches. I cannot possibly honestly say, that I would not (if my circumstances were different). And if I did, I would be devastated to learn, that my community shunned me. It would not change the fact, that I am a Lesbian loving a M/I butch.

Julie

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I do not mean this in a hostile, angry manner but truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man.
.

I don't get this either. We seem to be rendering the word lesbian meaningless.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Martina

Problems with that mode of discourse:

1) You are framing it as a conflict rather than a change or evolution. You are creating two sides when there may be many or none.

2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary. France's is an anti-immigrant racism lurking behind that pride in French culture. Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia.

3) It never works.

Your analysis here bears directly on the issues raised by the shifting pronoun paradigm, too.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Martina

i am too tired to make sense. But i will try.

Whenever someone talks about defending an identity, they are in deep water. Basically, it's a battle already lost (to mix my metaphors)....

2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary. France's is an anti-immigrant racism lurking behind that pride in French culture. Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia....

Martina, I'm not sure why you wrote this particular thing. It's an accusation that you don't explain or support. I understand that you take issue with someone, anyone, defining what it means to be a lesbian, but why did you write that doing so "probably (has) some(thing to do with) transphobia"?

I have no trouble defining what being a lesbian means to me. It means that I'm a woman who has sex with and partners with other women. As it happens, butch women. Very butch women. It has nothing to do with whether or not I'm stone. (yep, I am.) It has nothing to do with whether or not I'm currently having sex. (not much lately, but a girl can hope.)

If I say that for me to call myself a lesbian I would have to by and large continue to fit the above criteria, why is that transphobic?