Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Apocalipstic]

Any suggestions on how those of us who are older and have never been accepted by the Lesbian community (though we definitely qualify, but don't look like we do) can find community and regain our sense of Pride?

[Apocalipstic]

I looked for Butch Femme community becasue I did not find acceptance in the Lesbian community. Though as a Lesbian (yes, a pussy/boycunt/little dick eating one) I seem to be on the fringes in the BF community too.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Any suggestions on how those of us who are older and have never been accepted by the Lesbian community (though we definitely qualify, but don't look like we do) can find community and regain our sense of Pride?

I'm older and other than a few dopes, I have never felt unaccepted by the lesbian community at large. Granted, I was not out as a femme until 2000, and I'm in NY, a pretty diverse queer community.

I don't experience some big monolithic lesbian community from which I am excluded, nor do I have expectations about how I should be embraced. Apoc - you asked how those who do not "fit the stereotype" can be accepted... but perhaps your belief in a lesbian stereotype is part of the problem... are you excluding yourself? Are you allowing the dictates of a few to determine your space? Or your pride?

But if we want to play this out -- what I see as the stumbling block in the decades-long struggles within lesbian/queer women's communities about who belongs/who doesn't, what the criteria is, who get's marginalized, etc is... (I bet you can guess what I'm going to say)... the reality of institutionalized patriarchy and the internalized sexism and misogyny that results among women. Lesbians, as women who were visibly violating the patriarchy were marginalized. They banded together, closing ranks against patriarchal (read male) influence and control. That was a necessary reaction to patriarchy - being outlaws means being clear about who is safe and who isn't. The internalized part is where those lesbians were suspicious of other lesbians who appeared to embody anything they deemed patriarchal - like any amount of femininity, or too much masculinity, or penetrative sex, for example.

We've come quite a distance from some of these limitations, but it's like a rubber-band -- it stretches, then snaps back, then stretches again. The thing that concerns me is when we fight each other at the expense of fighting patriarchy, sexism, misogyny, racism, classism, etc. This brings us full circle to the issue of diversity, solidarity, allyship, building bridges, and inclusivity. My biggest concern about what happened in the BV organization is that they deleted "feminism" from their mission statement. In no way can any queer organization speak for lesbians, butch women, women of color, transwomen or any women if they are not clear about their feminist principles.

I'm rambling... and I realize I'm off the topic of lesbian pride...

Heart

[OS Butch]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Some people regard the term female = sex and woman = gender.

There are definitely butches who define as female, but not as women. I defined that way for many years and know quite a many butch who still does. Here the term woman is seen as being connected to a social construct, rather than it being connected to one's biology.

(Hope you were actually asking the question?)

Originally Posted by OS Butch

I was actually asking. Thanks for responding. For me, I am both, female, woman and Butch to boot! What a deal I am!

LOL! I looked at what I said that someone thanked me..... I suppose I should have written I am all 3, Female, Woman and Butch to boot! What a deal I am!
Seems I left something else out, I am a Lesbian too!

[nycfem]

And you are a most talented stained glass craftswoman!!!

Originally Posted by OS Butch

LOL! I looked at what I said that someone thanked me..... I suppose I should have written I am all 3, Female, Woman and Butch to boot! What a deal I am!
Seems I left something else out, I am a Lesbian too!

[OS Butch]

Originally Posted by nycfembbw

And you are a most talented stained glass craftswoman!!!

Awwww shucks. Thank you sweetie. See you in October

[AtLast]

I am very proud to be a lesbian. I am also proud of the expansion of queer as a concept that includes lesbianism as one cog on a wheel of great fortune in human development and personal expression.

[Toughy]

Lesbian is not my favorite word, although I am starting to like it a whole bunch more due to recent events. I always preferred dyke. I got lottsa words I resonate with:

butch dyke woman femininst pervert asshat woman-loving-woman lesbian fucker fuckee queer.........I live all those words......and I am proud to be all those words in any and all combinations. The most recent ones.....crone, elder kind of make me cringe, but I am 59 so I better get used to it ..........laughin....

[princessbelle]

I have also not used the word lesbian in years. I'm not exposed to too much where i live and what i ascertain is what i read or see on TV. I backed away from the word after i decided i didn't fit into what i was understanding how the word was being defined for me.

I shouldn't have felt that way. As most are saying here and in other threads, it is personal and there isn't a clear cut definition like i thought there was.

I agree with Toughy, due to recent events, it is now a word i am beginning to resonate to ...again.

It's good to be coming home. Lesbian pride IS a beautiful thing.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I've been thinking about this passivity too. I think its larger than just young people.

I wonder if social media gives us more connectivity to people we might not otherwise hang with is making us less confrontational? More like we need to not upset anyone.

I think that is some of it. Some of it, though, is a couple of memes that work to stifle the habit of discussion. One is the idea that if you disagree with me you are being *intolerant*. Since very few people want to be intolerant or thought of as being intolerant, they simply avoid disagreeing with others since to disagree with someone is thought to be prima facie evidence of not having an open mind. Another is the idea that we all have our own 'truth' or 'reality'. While this is ostensibly supposed to be the gateway to tolerance it is more appropriately the entrance to apathy. Why should I care if you espouse something anti-feminist if that is your 'truth' and my truth is something else? Just as well for me to ignore what you say and blithely go along pretending as if ideas don't have consequences.

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Thank you for your insightful response, Kobi.

I have some thoughts about this which I want to stew on a bit more before I let out, but one in particular is overwhelming me.


Pride. I've noticed in my own circles that it has become particularly passe to stand up to people. If someone says something you don't agree with you just respond with "ok whatever" and go on your merry way. I have rarely seen someone stand up and say "no, I am proud to be who i am, and this is why". There is quite a bit of fear surrounding acceptance and I think individuals are less likely to express pride in something if they feel it will alienate them from their chosen support group or social circle. This may be yet another folly of youth, which I am unfortunately subject to all too frequently, but the revelation is stunning to me this morning. This is something I will keep in the back of my mind and tumble around until it is a smooth, shiny concept. I do not want to be a "go with the flow" girl at the expense of my beliefs, no matter how many "friends" I lose.

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

I think this is a widespread syndrome much broader than just the youth of our community. That said, I think that it is more pronounced because while most of us over 40 were raised with *some* variation on the theme of 'there are good ideas and bad ideas, there are right ideas and wrong ideas...' it seems that the meme that there are only ideas and no idea is generically preferable to another idea has become pervasive. I notice it in the difference between the how my parent's generation spoke of civil rights and how we speak of our own civil rights struggle. Only now, in the last four or five years, has the queer movement even begun toying with the idea that we are, in fact, engaged in a moral battle and that our opponents are on the wrong side of it. If one actually reads the writings of the civil rights legends, however, one does not see the kind of equivocation one sees today. MLK Jr. never, as far as I am aware, gave even the smallest quarter to the idea that segregationists might have a point nor did he dismiss them as mere assholes. Instead, they were wrong, blacks and our allies were right, and it was just a matter of getting the majority to realize that segregation was a moral evil--not a merely undesirable condition but an actual moral evil.

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm older and other than a few dopes, I have never felt unaccepted by the lesbian community at large. Granted, I was not out as a femme until 2000, and I'm in NY, a pretty diverse queer community.

I don't experience some big monolithic lesbian community from which I am excluded, nor do I have expectations about how I should be embraced. Apoc - you asked how those who do not "fit the stereotype" can be accepted... but perhaps your belief in a lesbian stereotype is part of the problem... are you excluding yourself? Are you allowing the dictates of a few to determine your space? Or your pride?

This is a great point, Heart. When I came out as queer, other blacks used my queerness as evidence that my black identity (and therefore any claim I might have to blackness or black pride) was irrefutably broken. Now, it was already tenuous because I was never particularly 'street' and I certainly don't sound like I'm from the 'hood but coming out as queer was the final straw. Black people are not 'supposed' to be queer so if you are queer you have abandoned blackness. That was (and still is) the argument. For a while, I let that get in my head but then I came to my senses and realized that my blackness is not subject to other's dictates and that before I am either black or queer I am a *person*. We cannot afford to let others get in our heads and tell us that because we do not fit this or that stereotype that some person has determined is the signature trait of some group that we cannot claim membership of that group. That way madness truly lies.

We've come quite a distance from some of these limitations, but it's like a rubber-band -- it stretches, then snaps back, then stretches again. The thing that concerns me is when we fight each other at the expense of fighting patriarchy, sexism, misogyny, racism, classism, etc. This brings us full circle to the issue of diversity, solidarity, allyship, building bridges, and inclusivity. My biggest concern about what happened in the BV organization is that they deleted "feminism" from their mission statement. In no way can any queer organization speak for lesbians, butch women, women of color, transwomen or any women if they are not clear about their feminist principles.

I'm rambling... and I realize I'm off the topic of lesbian pride...

Heart

I don't know that you're too far off the topic, Heart. I think that feminism is non-optional for any queer movement worthy of supporting. Any queer movement, meme or ideology that turns its back on feminist principles should be suspect. By feminist principle, I mean something very simple--to me, feminism at base has one stance "women are people, for better or worse, they are first and foremost human beings" and one basic question "does this help women". If the meme does not treat women as people, then it is not feminist. If it does not have as one of its goals uplifting and empowering women or, at the very worst not doing any harm, then it does not deserve to be called feminist. The erasure of women is one of the reasons I had to pull back from BV. I wonder if some of why lesbian has become so problematic is that lesbian is definitively pro-woman. To me, lesbian and feminist go together in much the same way that life and water go together.

Cheers
Aj

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Scandal Andy,

I probably have more questions here than anything concrete to offer.

What do you mean by standing up to people is passe? Bring them here, we'll whip them into shape in no time

What I meant by that is that standing up to someone or choosing to staunchly disagree is often viewed as "being dramatic" or stirring up drama. If you are disagreeable, you're a drama queen and nobody wants to deal with that. I enjoy these forums because I feel that healthy debate is encouraged.

What does "ok whatever" signify to you? Is it an ok I hear you, or ok I respect your right to think that way, or more of an ok whatever dismissal kind of thing?

To me, it's a dismissal, as in "I don't want to get into it with you, so i am going to leave before things get ugly".

Are you asking if peer pressure affects only the young? In case you are, reread this thread with a different set of eyes .

No, I believe peer pressure is a constant, whether we choose to go along with it or not. What I was asking is whether my observation was on point when I said that older community members are less apt to give a damn what others think of them, and more likely to be confident in their beliefs without requiring the validation of others.

I am not a parent, nor do I have the opportunity to be involved in young peoples lives on a daily basis. It is hard for me to equate what seemed normal to me as a kid and what is the norm today. i cannot speak to this particular experience either

I grew up in an era of being surrounded by protests and movements - gay rights, women's rights, civil rights, gray panthers, Black Panthers, the Vietnam War, abortion rights and probably a bunch I forgot. There were profound changes going on that impacted, in one way or another on everyday life in big ways. (And I wonder why I am tired?) I did not grow up in a political household. I think it would be interesting to try and figure out where my activist drive comes from, in another thread of course.

This stuff spoken to me. It reasonated somewhere deep inside of me. Did my peers have the same kind of cathartic experience with it? No. Did they have the need to address things as I did? No. Did they stand up for themselves or others on a regular basis? No.

I was more social cause oriented. My peers, for the most part, were more social life oriented.

Is it different today?

Maybe it's this current culture of social media and the speed at which we are exposed to, process, then disregard various stimuli throughout our day, but I see fewer and fewer individuals stopping to think and truly ask themselves "is what is going on here okay? Is this hurtful to anyone?". There's a lot self-centered behavior reinforcing the "if it isn't happening to me, then I don't care" mentality. Maybe it's a side effect of geographic location or age demographic, it could be anything at all, I'm just not sure.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I think that is some of it. Some of it, though, is a couple of memes that work to stifle the habit of discussion. One is the idea that if you disagree with me you are being *intolerant*. Since very few people want to be intolerant or thought of as being intolerant, they simply avoid disagreeing with others since to disagree with someone is thought to be prima facie evidence of not having an open mind. Another is the idea that we all have our own 'truth' or 'reality'. While this is ostensibly supposed to be the gateway to tolerance it is more appropriately the entrance to apathy. Why should I care if you espouse something anti-feminist if that is your 'truth' and my truth is something else? Just as well for me to ignore what you say and blithely go along pretending as if ideas don't have consequences.




I think this is a widespread syndrome much broader than just the youth of our community. That said, I think that it is more pronounced because while most of us over 40 were raised with *some* variation on the theme of 'there are good ideas and bad ideas, there are right ideas and wrong ideas...' it seems that the meme that there are only ideas and no idea is generically preferable to another idea has become pervasive. I notice it in the difference between the how my parent's generation spoke of civil rights and how we speak of our own civil rights struggle. Only now, in the last four or five years, has the queer movement even begun toying with the idea that we are, in fact, engaged in a moral battle and that our opponents are on the wrong side of it. If one actually reads the writings of the civil rights legends, however, one does not see the kind of equivocation one sees today. MLK Jr. never, as far as I am aware, gave even the smallest quarter to the idea that segregationists might have a point nor did he dismiss them as mere assholes. Instead, they were wrong, blacks and our allies were right, and it was just a matter of getting the majority to realize that segregation was a moral evil--not a merely undesirable condition but an actual moral evil.




This is a great point, Heart. When I came out as queer, other blacks used my queerness as evidence that my black identity (and therefore any claim I might have to blackness or black pride) was irrefutably broken. Now, it was already tenuous because I was never particularly 'street' and I certainly don't sound like I'm from the 'hood but coming out as queer was the final straw. Black people are not 'supposed' to be queer so if you are queer you have abandoned blackness. That was (and still is) the argument. For a while, I let that get in my head but then I came to my senses and realized that my blackness is not subject to other's dictates and that before I am either black or queer I am a *person*. We cannot afford to let others get in our heads and tell us that because we do not fit this or that stereotype that some person has determined is the signature trait of some group that we cannot claim membership of that group. That way madness truly lies.



I don't know that you're too far off the topic, Heart. I think that feminism is non-optional for any queer movement worthy of supporting. Any queer movement, meme or ideology that turns its back on feminist principles should be suspect. By feminist principle, I mean something very simple--to me, feminism at base has one stance "women are people, for better or worse, they are first and foremost human beings" and one basic question "does this help women". If the meme does not treat women as people, then it is not feminist. If it does not have as one of its goals uplifting and empowering women or, at the very worst not doing any harm, then it does not deserve to be called feminist. The erasure of women is one of the reasons I had to pull back from BV. I wonder if some of why lesbian has become so problematic is that lesbian is definitively pro-woman. To me, lesbian and feminist go together in much the same way that life and water go together.

Cheers
Aj

Aj, as usual, I'm intimidated and overjoyed when we get to put our brains together.

As I stated previously, I feel there is almost a revulsion attached to disagreement. The oft-repeated "no drama" statement makes me feel that any time someone disagrees, they are seen as being dramatic and are immediately ostracized or dismissed, invalidating their ability to be a contributor. I think there's a huge push to either convert said dissenter to one's own personal beliefs or, barring that, ignore them altogether. I'm not sure where this push toward homogeneity came from, but I think it is fueling the apathy we are seeing. Part of me wants to find out why this is happening, and another part of me desperately wants to figure out how to stop it.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I don't know that you're too far off the topic, Heart. I think that feminism is non-optional for any queer movement worthy of supporting. Any queer movement, meme or ideology that turns its back on feminist principles should be suspect. By feminist principle, I mean something very simple--to me, feminism at base has one stance "women are people, for better or worse, they are first and foremost human beings" and one basic question "does this help women". If the meme does not treat women as people, then it is not feminist. If it does not have as one of its goals uplifting and empowering women or, at the very worst not doing any harm, then it does not deserve to be called feminist. The erasure of women is one of the reasons I had to pull back from BV. I wonder if some of why lesbian has become so problematic is that lesbian is definitively pro-woman. To me, lesbian and feminist go together in much the same way that life and water go together.

Cheers
Aj

Right on AJ. But I will go further than doing no harm and further than empowerment. Articulating feminist principles today should have at least these specific grounding and intersecting principles: linking oppressions, dismantling patriarchy, and women in leadership positions.

[Apocalipstic]

This is such a great discussion.

I was younger I was way more actively pro-woman than I am not....to the point of being anti-man.

There has to be a balance. Things seem so extreme.

If Lesbian is not the term for women loving women, then is there a term? Does it make us less for wanting a term to describe ourselves?

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Heart

Right on AJ. But I will go further than doing no harm and further than empowerment. Articulating feminist principles today should have at least these specific grounding and intersecting principles: linking oppressions, dismantling patriarchy, and women in leadership positions.

Respectfully, I'd like to offer a fourth "grounding". It could be optional for those to whom it may apply.

It is as follows: That masculine butches (me), be allowed (perchance, encouraged) to reconcile with our woman/female selves after years (in some cases, a lifetime) of self-estrangement. And that, that self-reconciliation be celebrated, discussed and parsed, and NOT SEEN AS DISAVOWING, NEGATING, OR OPPRESSING ANYONE ELSE.

This is something I have been struggling with on my own; it would be nice to find some lesbian/butch kindred spirits.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Respectfully, I'd like to offer a fourth "grounding". It could be optional for those to whom it may apply.

It is as follows: That masculine butches (me), be allowed (perchance, encouraged) to reconcile with our woman/female selves after years (in some cases, a lifetime) of self-estrangement. And that, that self-reconciliation be celebrated, discussed and parsed, and NOT SEEN AS DISAVOWING, NEGATING, OR OPPRESSING ANYONE ELSE.

This is something I have been struggling with on my own; it would be nice to find some lesbian/butch kindred spirits.

Whoa, sometimes truths just blow me away in a good way. This is something, I too, am finding to be necessary at this stage of my life.
Maybe its part of why I have this need to reclaim my lesbianism in a very vocal, public way.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Whoa, sometimes truths just blow me away in a good way. This is something, I too, am finding to be necessary at this stage of my life.
Maybe its part of why I have this need to reclaim my lesbianism in a very vocal, public way.

Well, here I am, Kobi. Sounds like we're on the same path.

It's been real tough trying to find butch kindred spirits to this end. There's been a headlong rush towards masculinizing "butch", draining it of femaleness, and affirming male IDed people. I got swept up in this, myself, with some help from partners. Hell, I had three consecutive partners insist I was a "Stone". (Been in EMDR therapy and guess what, I'm not.)

Whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not, femaleness/womanhood has been situated on a lower rung on the neo-butch hierarchy. Except, when femaleness/womanhood applies to MtoFs.

I SEE THIS EVERYWHERE IN THE COMMUNITY ! ! ! !

I do see reclaiming lesbianism (sexual orientation) as somewhat different than (though, related) with reclaiming my womanhood/femaleness (biology - not gender). I have to find the words to express this. (Chazz, keep it simple, stupid ).

[I'mOneToo]

My personal reconciliation of self has been perceived by some outside of myself as an abandonment of myself, or an abandonment of who they are in relation to me. My changing, dropping or adding a descriptor for myself doesn't change anyone else. Others change too, and I'm as accepting of that in others as myself.

Originally Posted by Chazz

Respectfully, I'd like to offer a fourth "grounding". It could be optional for those to whom it may apply.

It is as follows: That masculine butches (me), be allowed (perchance, encouraged) to reconcile with our woman/female selves after years (in some cases, a lifetime) of self-estrangement. And that, that self-reconciliation be celebrated, discussed and parsed, and NOT SEEN AS DISAVOWING, NEGATING, OR OPPRESSING ANYONE ELSE.

This is something I have been struggling with on my own; it would be nice to find some lesbian/butch kindred spirits.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Respectfully, I'd like to offer a fourth "grounding". It could be optional for those to whom it may apply.

It is as follows: That masculine butches (me), be allowed (perchance, encouraged) to reconcile with our woman/female selves after years (in some cases, a lifetime) of self-estrangement. And that, that self-reconciliation be celebrated, discussed and parsed, and NOT SEEN AS DISAVOWING, NEGATING, OR OPPRESSING ANYONE ELSE.

This is something I have been struggling with on my own; it would be nice to find some lesbian/butch kindred spirits.

Chazz -- yes. This is so clear and important. I appreciate and support your butch voice on this and realize that I may be wandering from a central and crucial point in the discussion.

Exposing the marginalization of butch women is very much a feminist issue and part of resisting sexism and misogyny.

Apologies if what I said felt at all dismissive.

Heart

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Heart

Chazz -- yes. This is so clear and important. I appreciate and support your butch voice on this and realize that I may be wandering from a central and crucial point in the discussion.

Exposing the marginalization of butch women is very much a feminist issue and part of resisting sexism and misogyny.

Apologies if what I said felt at all dismissive.

Heart

Oh Heart, I don't feel you're being dismissive in the slightest - never, ever.

The above post makes me feel hugged by you. Thanks, Heart. It's nice to feel that it's okay to be honest and vulnerable, and to have someone reach out and hug you.

I, too, see Feminism as the only effective discourse for addressing "misogyny, sexism, homophobia, ageism. racism, etc....".

I've spent ten years searching gender theory for a way to address these issues. It's just not there. Even if everyone REALLY understood the semantical jiujitsu's of gender theory, it's not there.

[AtLast]

I have not experienced the negative impact that many within our community has via lesbians- my guess is that my experience is very much like what Heart has stated.

Yet, I certainly get how and why so many here have struggled with the term due to their past experiences. Reclaiming and applying what we know as queers to lesbian seems really important to me. There is just not one kind of lesbian and it is about time that it reflects how diverse the world we live in really is.