Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Heart

Right AJ, I was not at all suggesting that I expect feminism as a movement to be free of warts, nor was I suggesting that WOC have not spoken up and come to the table. But I do feel a mite nervous when we start to get all nostalgic for the "good ol' days" of the 2nd Wave.

Heart

Yes, there were knotty issues; it got ugly sometimes, but....... The beauty of Feminism is that issues are addressed and redressed. Discussion, debate, heuristic inquiry are not vilified as they are, now, within the LGBTQ community under the reign of gender theory.

Despite its problems, the tools of 2nd Wave Feminism were collectively liberating to all women. Even when women splintered off from the main body of Feminism to focus on oppressions of particular interest/importance to them, they took Feminism's "tools" with them. This is how Womanism, Lesbian Feminism, Third-world Feminism, Postcolonial Feminism, etc., were birthed. Thank HP for all of that.

Unlike today, that splintering-off was not cast as divisive, oppressive, phobic.... Think Mich Fest.... How crazy and self-centered to think any of that?

Feminism is empowering and unifying even in its diversification - not solipsistic and individualistic like gender theory.

(Solipsism is the position that anything outside of ones mind is untrue. If a solipsist thinks or imagines something, it exists, objective, tangible reality be damned. Other people's reality be damned, too.)


I have always found it suspicious that genderists point to the the "warts" of Feminism rather than its successes. The vilification of Feminism and Feminists is strategic. It's about the "tools".... Feminist "tools" do bring the "master's" house down.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Yes, there were knotty issues; it got ugly sometimes, but.......

There are STILL knotty issues. It still gets ugly.

The beauty of Feminism is that issues are addressed and redressed. Discussion, debate, heuristic inquiry are not vilified as they are, now, within the LGBTQ community under the reign of gender theory.

As a femme, I have had to confront vilification from feminists.

Unlike today, that splintering-off was not cast as divisive, oppressive, phobic.... Think Mich Fest.... How crazy and self-centered to think any of that?

Not sure I understand the reference to Mich Fest. I am also not sure that feminist WOC would agree that there has been no oppressive consequences.
As a femme lesbian, I do not agree with that assessment.

I have always found it suspicious that genderists point to the the "warts" of Feminism rather than its successes. The vilification of Feminism and Feminists is strategic. It's about the "tools".... Feminist "tools" do bring the "master's" house down.

Hmmmm.... I'm feeling pretty uncomfortable with the "this-vs-that" direction this discussion is taking. Does this mean that if I, as a feminist, point to warts, I am somehow enacting a betrayal? That feels possibly divisive and oppressive.....

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the tone here, or maybe I'm pushing a point at the wrong juncture... but I am unwilling to wear rose-colored feminist glasses. It's funny, since I have been one of the most ardent feminists on these boards for years to be in this position, but I'm firm in both my feminism and my willingness to critique it.

Heart

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Heart

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the tone here, or maybe I'm pushing a point at the wrong juncture... but I am unwilling to wear rose-colored feminist glasses. It's funny, since I have been one of the most ardent feminists on these boards for years to be in this position, but I'm firm in both my feminism and my willingness to critique it.

Heart

Heart, maybe you're "misunderstanding the tone or pushing a point at the wrong juncture" of my post. Maybe, maybe not..... I don't know.

I don't wear "rose-colored feminist glasses", either.

I do think that Feminism (warts and all) offers much better tools for challenging patriarchy than gender theory. I also think the needs of, and issues of importance to, lesbians/butch/women have been marginalized under gender theory.

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Chazz

Yes, there were knotty issues; it got ugly sometimes, but.......

There are STILL knotty issues. It still gets ugly.

I didn't say there weren't still "knotty issues". (I was using the past tense because I was referring to the Feminism of the 1970', 80's....) WHAT I AM SAYING IS: There a Feminist process (heuristic) which offers a way of talking about knotty issues without vilification. Here we are doing it.

A Feminist not utilizing a Feminist heuristic is NOT Feminism.

The beauty of Feminism is that issues are addressed and redressed. Discussion, debate, heuristic inquiry are not vilified as they are, now, within the LGBTQ community under the reign of gender theory. And that has been unproductive and the source of much strife within the LGBTQ community.

As a femme, I have had to confront vilification from feminists.

As a butch I have had to confront vilification from so-called feminists, too. Again, that's not Feminist process.

Unlike today, that splintering-off was not cast as divisive, oppressive, phobic.... Think Mich Fest.... How crazy and self-centered to think any of that?

Not sure I understand the reference to Mich Fest. I am also not sure that feminist WOC would agree that there has been no oppressive consequences. As a femme lesbian, I do not agree with that assessment.

As a Lesbian Feminist, I support your right to disagree. As a Feminist, I assert that Mich Fest and women WBW events have a right to exist. As do WOC-only events, etc., etc......

I have always found it suspicious that genderists point to the the "warts" of Feminism rather than its successes. The vilification of Feminism and Feminists is strategic. It's about the "tools".... Feminist "tools" do bring the "master's" house down.

Hmmmm.... I'm feeling pretty uncomfortable with the "this-vs-that" direction this discussion is taking. Does this mean that if I, as a feminist, point to warts, I am somehow enacting a betrayal? That feels possibly divisive and oppressive.....

Umm, don't know where I implied betrayal on anyones part, but....

I feel uncomfortable with "this-vs-that", too. I'm just calling it out because it exists within the LGBTQ community. Naming it, isn't doing it.

I acknowledge that skirting around certain issues is considered PC, and often, an act of self-preservation. (Not that I am saying you're doing that, Heart, 'cause I'm not.)

However, it does matter to me that lesbians, female IDed butches and Feminists have been marginalized under gender theory. Calling that out on the heels of this "masculine of center" business seems like the thing to do. It should cause discomfort because discomfort is a motivator towards change.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Chazz

I do think that Feminism (warts and all) offers much better tools for challenging patriarchy than gender theory. I also think the needs of, and issues of importance to, lesbians/butch/women have been marginalized under gender theory.

I agree.

As a Feminist, I assert that Mich Fest and women WBW events have a right to exist. As do WOC-only events, etc., etc......

Ahhh... as a feminist, this I don't agree with. I vehemently support women-only spaces, (as I do POC spaces, which may have people in them who "appear" to be as white as me). Trangender women belong in women's spaces. Woman-born-woman is an exclusionary term to my feminist mind, based upon the extreme experiences of misogyny that transwomen deal with. To me, this is a feminist, (not a gender-theory) issue. I run a shelter for battered women and teach self-defense classes to women survivors of assault. Both spaces include transgender women.

However, it does matter to me that lesbians, female IDed butches and Feminists have been marginalized under gender theory. Calling that out on the heels of this "masculine of center" business seems like the thing to do. It should cause discomfort because discomfort is a motivator towards change.

I agree about the marginalization and the calling out. Perhaps I was personalizing.... thank you for the dialogue, warts and all.

Heart

[Heart]

Chazz is right about the pain and hurt in these discussions. Also anxiety, sadness, frustration....

To share a bit further about my experience:

Just as I recognize the privilege that transmen garner, (even when they refuse to), I also recognize the misogyny and sexism that transwomen deal with. Hate crimes and violence towards transwomen is off the charts high.

I work in a field (anti-domestic violence) founded by 2nd wave feminists in the 1970s, many of whom were lesbians. The inability of many of the providers in this field to provide safety or services for transwomen who have been raped or were in abusive relationships (most often with a straight man), is deeply disturbing and divisive.

I have worked with other lgbtq advocates to help grass roots feminists shift their thinking on this. Yes, we have used "gender theory," which frankly hasn't been very useful. I did a presentation about using a more "gender neutral" lens at a conference once and the mainstram feminists in the room got up and walked out.

It's clear to me that we do not have to change our feminist, anti-patriarchal frmework one jot in order to bring transwomen into safe spaces, because transwomen are very vulnerable to patriarchal oppression and danger. But that's been a hard message to get across. The feelings of suspicion, threat, and betrayal within the feminist advocacy community remains intense. I think we have to shift away from gender-speak and go back to language and tools rooted in feminism in order to continue the discussion.

What I am reminded of, (thanks to this thread), is that patriarchy makes it hard for us to trust each other.

Heart

[Chazz]

This will probably be my last post on this subject. I would prefer to focus on issues of importance to me and women who have shared my life's experience.

BTW, I'm not feeling strident, though this post may come across as same.

Originally Posted by Heart

Chazz is right about the pain and hurt in these discussions. Also anxiety, sadness, frustration....

To share a bit further about my experience:

Just as I recognize the privilege that transmen garner, (even when they refuse to), I also recognize the misogyny and sexism that transwomen deal with. Hate crimes and violence towards transwomen is off the charts high.

I think we may have a differing points of view about the "privilege" "transmen garner".

I don't see "passing" as a privilege for anyone. Nor do I see an assumption of male entitlement as a "privilege", either. To the extent that, that ever happens, it's buying in and selling out.

You, me, anyone can buy into any given oppressive paradigm, but does it serve us. I mean REALLY serve us? (This may be me being spirit focused, but hey....)

I'm sorry when hate crimes happen to anyone. Absolutely, ANYONE. It behooves all of us to get to the core of what causes hate crimes with an unblinking eye. I suspect we are all complicit in hate crimes, each in our own way.

I work in a field (anti-domestic violence) founded by 2nd wave feminists in the 1970s, many of whom were lesbians. The inability of many of the providers in this field to provide safety or services for transwomen who have been raped or were in abusive relationships (most often with a straight man), is deeply disturbing and divisive.

It's a much as most lesbians can do to provide for themselves, their children and one another, to the extent that they do and can. (Hell, my community has an impossible time keeping lesbian businesses open because lesbians are so short of resources.)

But, in the spirit of fairness, I promise to refer my lesbian and straight DV clients to DV shelters started, operated and financed by transwomen.

I have worked with other lgbtq advocates to help grass roots feminists shift their thinking on this. Yes, we have used "gender theory," which frankly hasn't been very useful. I did a presentation about using a more "gender neutral" lens at a conference once and the mainstram feminists in the room got up and walked out.

I'm sorry that happened to you. It must have felt awful, but people are entitled to vote with their feet.

It's clear to me that we do not have to change our feminist, anti-patriarchal frmework one jot in order to bring transwomen into safe spaces, because transwomen are very vulnerable to patriarchal oppression and danger. But that's been a hard message to get across. The feelings of suspicion, threat, and betrayal within the feminist advocacy community remains intense. I think we have to shift away from gender-speak and go back to language and tools rooted in feminism in order to continue the discussion.

I think it's okay for Feminists to have different perspectives about what constitutes "suspicion, threat, and betrayal" and any given identity. I think it's okay for women to choose, for themselves, how they wish to allocate their time and resources (where and to whom) without being pressured, cajoled or guilt tripped. The afore mentioned happens all the time in "our" current community. We are uniformly expected to jump onto the band wagon of the day, when it's all some of us can do to master our own particularistic destinies and self-understanding.

I may be a butch, but I may choose not to get involved with a "Butch Rights" movement. I can't imagine hanging out with the folks currently running BVs, for instance. This doesn't mean I'm suspicious, threatened, feeling betrayed", or wish them harm, or would be indifferent to their plight should harm befall them.... It means, my interests and proclivities lie elsewhere. Their deal doesn't speak to me. It doesn't further my understanding of myself as a woman IDed butch. Should I ignore my imperatives in the name of someone else's version of "solidarity"? Rally around other's cause(s) rather than my own? Send a check? What? ....I listen, I introspect, I choose, and then I act according to the beat of my own drummer.

One of the worst elements of 2nd Wave Feminism, in my estimation, was the pressure mostly white and/or privileged Feminists brought to bear on all women to adopt their agenda. And when "we" (lesbians, WOC, B&Fs....) didn't, we were castigated, vilified and tagged as being - %*#^@.

I see this happening, still, in the current LGBTQ constellation. It is precisely what the folks at BVs are doing. That kind of politic is wrong even in the post-modern world of abject subjectivity. Either subjectivity is equal for all, or it's a crock of diddlysquat awarded to the self-anointed, privileged few - based on what? Who is more oppressed, battered, subjected to hate crimes? That is oppression Olympics redux.

What I am reminded of, (thanks to this thread), is that patriarchy makes it hard for us to trust each other. - Heart

Exactly.... My "trust" isn't garnered when my personal agenda is set for me. Nor is it nurtured when I'm pressured or guilted into supporting people, places and things that don't "speak" to me, honor my boundaries or identity, or my take on reality. I'm a live and let live person. That's as much as I can do and stay my own course. I'll meet-up with everyone else where our imperatives intersect.

[Chazz]

You're most welcome, Heart.

Originally Posted by Heart

Ahhh... as a feminist, this I don't agree with. I vehemently support women-only spaces, (as I do POC spaces, which may have people in them who "appear" to be as white as me). Trangender women belong in women's spaces. Woman-born-woman is an exclusionary term to my feminist mind, based upon the extreme experiences of misogyny that transwomen deal with. To me, this is a feminist, (not a gender-theory) issue. I run a shelter for battered women and teach self-defense classes to women survivors of assault. Both spaces include transgender women.

My life as a WBW lesbian/butch, has, and still does, followed a trajectory that is different from that of transwomen's lives. There are times in my life when I need to coalesce around any one, or all, of those experiences. If that is seen as "exclusionary", I'm okay with it. I see it as particularistic, but I can live with "exclusionary".

It would not occur to me to attend to the "Sisters of Color" meeting at the local LGBTQ Center. I don't feel excluded.

I too worked (for many years) in a Battered Women's Shelter. Some issues are as yet unresolved, not from my perspective, but from clients' perspectives....

I'd prefer not to have this discussion lapse into any one, or another, particularistic derail, so.....


I agree about the marginalization and the calling out. Perhaps I was personalizing.... thank you for the dialogue, warts and all. - Heart

That's the common ground we can coalesce around, then.

[AtLast]

And from Jeanne Cordova of Butch Nation:
http://networkedblogs.com/lINy3

Posted on FB: This Saturday, at the BV Conference 12pm. BULLDAGGER: For Women-Identified, Female-Pronoun Using Butches. This Sunday, 12pm. "Exploring Our Masculinities While Keeping Our Feminisms." Oakland Marriott. The room is under the name Goldberg. Free and open to the public. Butch Nation will be there. Post widely.

Also on FB, posted by Krys Freeman of BV: Friday, 12pm. Town Hall Meeting -- To discuss all that has transpired in the past few weeks. Jewett Ballroom Free and open to the public. Butch Nation encouraged to attend. Post widely.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Feminism is empowering and unifying even in its diversification - not solipsistic and individualistic like gender theory.

What's individualistic about it? i am sure there are explanations that focus on individuals, but what is individualistic about it. i don't actually know what gender theory you mean, so it's hard for me to speculate.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Martina

What's individualistic about it? i am sure there are explanations that focus on individuals, but what is individualistic about it. i don't actually know what gender theory you mean, so it's hard for me to speculate.

Postmodernism is a mix of philosophies: Primarily, subjectivism and epistemic relativism. These philosophies hold that no epistemic standard is defensible, true or factual.

A postmodernist might argue “that modern science is nothing more than a “myth,” a “narration”, a “social construction.” (Professor Steven Luper, Trinity University)

Gender theory is the offspring of postmodernism. One of its primary tenets is that gender performativity is a way of destabilizing/deconstructing gender conventions.

Feminists hold that gender conventions are fictional, grotesque myths; and that re-enacting them in any context perpetuates oppression.

Gender performativity is an individual, self-focused activity – even when performed in a group…. Models at a Playboy photo shoot are individually re-inscribing gender constructs even when posing for a group photograph.

The enactment of real-world, gender conventions - of performing/embodying fictional constructs – makes them appear (feel) natural, organic, real. This reinforces gender stereotypes whether the performativity is meant to be parody or not; whether it’s meant to be a burlesque metaphor or not.

African Feminist and author, Nnameka, had this to say about sex roles: Western European and North American epistemologies since ‘post structuralism’s [now referred to as postmodernism] focus on discourse and aesthetics instead of social action encourages the egocentricity and individualism that undermines collective action.’ (Nnameka, 2003, p.364).

[ScandalAndy]

I was cruising some of the older posts (lol cruising) and noticed that there was a bit of discussion about feminist reading material.

Is there any other reading material/movies that anyone finds particularly prideful or that portrays lesbians in a positive light? I know one of the major critiques of lesbian representation in the media is that they're either crazy or they die at the end of the film. I always struggle with that.


As a side note, I spent the past five days in a very small town and was openly talked about when my friend kissed me. It was a tiny peck, but apparently all the old men in the firehall saw fit to flap their gums about it. I refused to let them make me feel bad about who I am. There's my prideful moment for the week.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I was cruising some of the older posts (lol cruising) and noticed that there was a bit of discussion about feminist reading material.

Is there any other reading material/movies that anyone finds particularly prideful or that portrays lesbians in a positive light? I know one of the major critiques of lesbian representation in the media is that they're either crazy or they die at the end of the film. I always struggle with that.


As a side note, I spent the past five days in a very small town and was openly talked about when my friend kissed me. It was a tiny peck, but apparently all the old men in the firehall saw fit to flap their gums about it. I refused to let them make me feel bad about who I am. There's my prideful moment for the week.

Call me a sap, but for a happy, stress-free lesbian movie night, I never get enough of The Incredibly True Adventures of Two Girls In Love. The butch/femme girls bumbling into love are adorable. The butch lesbian aunt and her femme partner, (and exes), are perfectly portrayed. It's sweet, and the lesbians get to be happy. It was one of the first times I saw movie images that looked like people I know.

[Kobi]

Most of the novel type things I love are probably out of print

I do like the tv series Exes and Ohs - is like a lesbian version of "Friends", sweet, cute, and very funny.

[EnderD_503]

I'm sorry to intrude on the discussion, though perhaps apologies are pointless when I've already waltzed in...but I'm sorry. It's difficult to stand by, especially when we've already got a thread going on the issue, when such blatant transphobia is displayed. I fully support lesbians claiming lesbian pride, but what I don't support is doing it by degrading transwomen and claiming that transwomen lesbians are not "real" lesbians or "real" women. To me that is utterly and completely transphobic. I know that June addressed part of what I have to say, but I don't think the point can be stressed enough.

@Chazz

You think transwomen should be allowed at MWMF - I think Mich Fest's WBW mission statement should be honored and respected. There are too many places in this community where WBW aren't honored, respected or given "ground" to stand on in the fullness of their/our particularism. One event a year doesn't seem like much to ask for. (I've never attended Mich Fest, nor do I ever intend to.)

Claiming that transwomen are not born women, and that their presence among lesbians/women that they deem to be their sisters is not "honouring" or "respecting" women who were born with XX chromosomes, is so utterly transphobic. Transwomen are women in every way. They may have been born with the wrong chromosomes and in the wrong body, but they are women through and through. They are not lesser women than women who were born female-bodied. I fail to see how you think that excluding one component of the lesbian community is somehow benefiting that community. That kind of mentality wreaks of the typical Janice Raymond bullshit of transwomen somehow being a threat to other women, or being sent to "infiltrate" women's spaces in order to corrupt or destroy them.

Not sarcastic, an acknowledgment of fact. In one way or another, lesbians/women tend to do most of the heavy lifting while males and once-males benefit from the bounty of lesbians/women's efforts, often, without ever making a tangible contribution to the effort.

And here you ignore the history of the G/L liberation movement, the same way you ignored the history of transmen in the butch community some months back. Or perhaps you just like to omit the portions of history that don't suit you and your ideas. Transwomen in particular have been a part of the struggle for gay and lesbian rights since the beginning of the movement. They were among the pioneers who struggled against discrimination and police brutality exhibited against gays, lesbians and alongside them transwomen/drag queens of all sexual orientations. Transwomen in particular were thrown under the bus despite the sacrifices they made. So when you sit there and claim that transwomen have just sat back and waited for lesbians and women born XX to fight their battles for them, I'm sorry but you're twisting history so perversely that it is nothing short of insult to the transwomen who sacrificed so much.

[dreadgeek]

Thank you. Well-spoken. Both of you. I am genuinely verklempt.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by DapperButch

One of you please help me understand this.

How can either of you talk about how "refreshing" it is that everyone is being so "respectful" in this thread?

There is blatant bigotry of transwomen going on in this thread. Did you guys just miss that part, or are you ok with that part? Really, I want to understand this.

There is more than one lesbian transwoman on this message board. They are a PART of our community. Do you not think they are reading the words that have been written here? Do you have any freaking concept as to how it might be making them feel?

I agree with you, AtLast, there is no "hidden gem" slights...there are right out there in the open!

Yes, I know that June handled this, but I cannot sit idly by and not have some member of the community acknowledge how shitty this is, so I am doing it, even though I do not belong in this thread.

Chazz, we have lesbian transwomen here. They are an important part of our community. Please consider that the next time you speak about "once-male", people.

(P.S. I will not be available to post again until Sunday, Good nIght, all).

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I'm sorry to intrude on the discussion, though perhaps apologies are pointless when I've already waltzed in...but I'm sorry. It's difficult to stand by, especially when we've already got a thread going on the issue, when such blatant transphobia is displayed. I fully support lesbians claiming lesbian pride, but what I don't support is doing it by degrading transwomen and claiming that transwomen lesbians are not "real" lesbians or "real" women. To me that is utterly and completely transphobic. I know that June addressed part of what I have to say, but I don't think the point can be stressed enough.

@Chazz



Claiming that transwomen are not born women, and that their presence among lesbians/women that they deem to be their sisters is not "honouring" or "respecting" women who were born with XX chromosomes, is so utterly transphobic. Transwomen are women in every way. They may have been born with the wrong chromosomes and in the wrong body, but they are women through and through. They are not lesser women than women who were born female-bodied. I fail to see how you think that excluding one component of the lesbian community is somehow benefiting that community. That kind of mentality wreaks of the typical Janice Raymond bullshit of transwomen somehow being a threat to other women, or being sent to "infiltrate" women's spaces in order to corrupt or destroy them.



And here you ignore the history of the G/L liberation movement, the same way you ignored the history of transmen in the butch community some months back. Or perhaps you just like to omit the portions of history that don't suit you and your ideas. Transwomen in particular have been a part of the struggle for gay and lesbian rights since the beginning of the movement. They were among the pioneers who struggled against discrimination and police brutality exhibited against gays, lesbians and alongside them transwomen/drag queens of all sexual orientations. Transwomen in particular were thrown under the bus despite the sacrifices they made. So when you sit there and claim that transwomen have just sat back and waited for lesbians and women born XX to fight their battles for them, I'm sorry but you're twisting history so perversely that it is nothing short of insult to the transwomen who sacrificed so much.

[Heart]

Dapper, Ender... did you see where I, a lesbian feminist woman, pushed back against excluding transwomen? I'm just curious if you saw that part of the dialogue that was going on here? Because one of the things that was important to me, in the wake of the BV/BN split, was that butch women were speaking up, finally about things that had long been festering. Which was an opportunity.

I have no argument with June modding Chazz's comment, but I do have a problem with the suggestion that Chazz leave the site. Chazz is no longer here to read your posts or to engage in discussion, whether it's about transwomen belonging or butch women belonging. That's a loss.

Sadly,
Heart