Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Heart]

Chazz - My responses in blue. I understand that you wish to move on, this response is not about the content (we have places we disagree, which is fine), but it is about the tone and the kinds of divisions/accusations/justifications that come up over and over when feminism and genderism cross -- always seeming to be at cross purposes....

I think we may have a differing points of view about the "privilege" "transmen garner". I don't see "passing" as a privilege for anyone.

Nor do I - I was not referring to "passing."

It's a much as most lesbians can do to provide for themselves, their children and one another, to the extent that they do and can. (Hell, my community has an impossible time keeping lesbian businesses open because lesbians are so short of resources.)

But, in the spirit of fairness, I promise to refer my lesbian and straight DV clients to DV shelters started, operated and financed by transwomen.

Huh? I do not get this statement (sarcastic?). Ouch.


I have worked with other lgbtq advocates to help grass roots feminists shift their thinking on this. Yes, we have used "gender theory," which frankly hasn't been very useful. I did a presentation about using a more "gender neutral" lens at a conference once and the mainstram feminists in the room got up and walked out.

I'm sorry that happened to you. It must have felt awful, but people are entitled to vote with their feet.

Chazz, my point here was that gender theory was NOT going to work for all the reasons you, among others, have elucidated, and that I agree with. I'm talking about my learning curve and you seem to be chastizing me.


I think it's okay for Feminists to have different perspectives about what constitutes "suspicion, threat, and betrayal" and any given identity. I think it's okay for women to choose, for themselves, how they wish to allocate their time and resources (where and to whom) without being pressured, cajoled or guilt tripped.

Nothing I have said was intended to pressure or guilt trip. Not my style.

The afore mentioned happens all the time in "our" current community. We are uniformly expected to jump onto the band wagon of the day, when it's all some of us can do to master our own particularistic destinies and self-understanding.

I'm sensing that the direction in which I took the discussion feels to you like a derail of the issue of lesbian pride and more specifically of lesbian BUTCH pride. Is that true? Coming off of the BV/BN thing, I get that, but this thread is not only about butches, but about all of us who are lesbians, and also those of us who are feminists.

My interests and proclivities lie elsewhere. Their deal doesn't speak to me. It doesn't further my understanding of myself as a woman IDed butch. Should I ignore my imperatives in the name of someone else's version of "solidarity"? Rally around other's cause(s) rather than my own? Send a check? What? ....I listen, I introspect, I choose, and then I act according to the beat of my own drummer.

This doesn't sound strident -- just defensive, as if you felt attacked or dismissed by the issues I raised. Of course you get to choose your focus, your imperative, and act accordingly. I don't know how what I raised opposes that, unless it was my belief that transwomen should be allowed at MWMF. It just doesn't strike me as very feminist for a transwoman to be barred, while transmen, male-pronoun-using, transmasculine, male-butch-3rd gendered people have access.

One of the worst elements of 2nd Wave Feminism, in my estimation, was the pressure mostly white and/or privileged Feminists brought to bear on all women to adopt their agenda. And when "we" (lesbians, WOC, B&Fs....) didn't, we were castigated, vilified and tagged as being - %*#^@.

Am I doing that?

What I am reminded of, (thanks to this thread), is that patriarchy makes it hard for us to trust each other. - Heart

Exactly.... My "trust" isn't garnered when my personal agenda is set for me. Nor is it nurtured when I'm pressured or guilted into supporting people, places and things that don't "speak" to me, honor my boundaries or identity, or my take on reality.

Again, is that what you have experienced from my posts here? Because truly that was not my intention or goal. And I wonder, feel both mystified, confused, and - okay yes, upset that we are in this place.

When I talk feminism, I highlight issues of race/gender that feminism erased or essentialized. When I talk gender theory, I highlight issues of feminism and patriarchy that gender theory erased and denigrated. So, lesbians think I'm being anti-feminist, and queers think I'm being anti-genderist. Guess I can't win. But none of it - NONE of it is intended to personally erase anyone else's experience or choices. It's all in the interest of dialogue, intersection, and growth. I was kinda hoping I wouldn't have to make that disclaimer in this thread.

[Chazz]

Heart, my responses are in purple.

Originally Posted by Heart

Chazz - My responses in blue. I understand that you wish to move on, this response is not about the content (we have places we disagree, which is fine), but it is about the tone and the kinds of divisions/accusations/justifications that come up over and over when feminism and genderism cross -- always seeming to be at cross purposes....

I think we may have a differing points of view about the "privilege" "transmen garner". I don't see "passing" as a privilege for anyone.

Nor do I - I was not referring to "passing."

I understand that your statement: "the privilege that transmen garner" was more global. I got that.... I was making a finer point, that is, that I don't see assimilation into Patriarchy as a privilege. I think the whole concept of male privilege is a misnomer. When we speak of "misogyny", we're actually speaking about a grievous power imbalance. "Male privilege" is a byproduct of that imbalance. Speaking in terms of male privilege/misogyny obscures the foundation of both - a grievous power imbalance. This exists whether one aspires to it, or not.



It's a much as most lesbians can do to provide for themselves, their children and one another, to the extent that they do and can. (Hell, my community has an impossible time keeping lesbian businesses open because lesbians are so short of resources.)

But, in the spirit of fairness, I promise to refer my lesbian and straight DV clients to DV shelters started, operated and financed by transwomen.

Huh? I do not get this statement (sarcastic?). Ouch.

Not sarcastic, an acknowledgment of fact. In one way or another, lesbians/women tend to do most of the heavy lifting while males and once-males benefit from the bounty of lesbians/women's efforts, often, without ever making a tangible contribution to the effort. If I were in need of a DV shelter, I would prefer to be in one that was started, operated and financed by lesbians. Wait, many shelters are just that. (This may not be PC to say out loud, but it's a big issue in DV circles, nevertheless. This is just one of many issues that is deemed unacceptable to discuss, so resentments fester under the surface.)



I have worked with other lgbtq advocates to help grass roots feminists shift their thinking on this. Yes, we have used "gender theory," which frankly hasn't been very useful. I did a presentation about using a more "gender neutral" lens at a conference once and the mainstram feminists in the room got up and walked out.

I'm sorry that happened to you. It must have felt awful, but people are entitled to vote with their feet.

Chazz, my point here was that gender theory was NOT going to work for all the reasons you, among others, have elucidated, and that I agree with. I'm talking about my learning curve and you seem to be chastizing me.

None of my comments have been directed at you personally. I'm speaking to the issues you raise.



I think it's okay for Feminists to have different perspectives about what constitutes "suspicion, threat, and betrayal" and any given identity. I think it's okay for women to choose, for themselves, how they wish to allocate their time and resources (where and to whom) without being pressured, cajoled or guilt tripped.

Nothing I have said was intended to pressure or guilt trip. Not my style.

Again, not talking about you, personally, Heart.

Guilt tripping is pervasive within the community in overt and covert ways. There is an implicit expectation, for instance, that we should all be of the same mind about all sorts of gender theory doctrine. We're not all of the same mind, of course, but challenging any of the doctrine elicits recriminations, or accusations of transphobia. That's intimidation and censorship.

You may be focused on the unaddressed misogyny (which exists by the ream), but there are other issues of importance to some of us that are not safe to address. No, I'm not going there in this conversation. I'll just say the toe dancing gets exhausting, and I'm not always sure the myth of "community" is worth it. I know many other lesbians feel this way, too. This is a part of the reason many of "us" feel marginalized - our "voices" have been silenced. This is not only oppressive, it's anti-solidarity.

The afore mentioned happens all the time in "our" current community. We are uniformly expected to jump onto the band wagon of the day, when it's all some of us can do to master our own particularistic destinies and self-understanding.

I'm sensing that the direction in which I took the discussion feels to you like a derail of the issue of lesbian pride and more specifically of lesbian BUTCH pride. Is that true? Coming off of the BV/BN thing, I get that, but this thread is not only about butches, but about all of us who are lesbians, and also those of us who are feminists.

This is not about you, or me, personally.... It would feel like a derail if "we" focused on people who do not celebrate Lesbian Pride or identify as lesbian. Especially, since some of "us" lesbians have done both for an entire lifetime, and not as we traversed a hierarchical gender continuum.



My interests and proclivities lie elsewhere. Their deal doesn't speak to me. It doesn't further my understanding of myself as a woman IDed butch. Should I ignore my imperatives in the name of someone else's version of "solidarity"? Rally around other's cause(s) rather than my own? Send a check? What? ....I listen, I introspect, I choose, and then I act according to the beat of my own drummer.

This doesn't sound strident -- just defensive, as if you felt attacked or dismissed by the issues I raised. Of course you get to choose your focus, your imperative, and act accordingly. I don't know how what I raised opposes that, unless it was my belief that transwomen should be allowed at MWMF. It just doesn't strike me as very feminist for a transwoman to be barred, while transmen, male-pronoun-using, transmasculine, male-butch-3rd gendered people have access.

I'm not personally defensive - I am defending lesbian pride, lesbian/butch identity and heritage.

You think transwomen should be allowed at MWMF - I think Mich Fest's WBW mission statement should be honored and respected. There are too many places in this community where WBW aren't honored, respected or given "ground" to stand on in the fullness of their/our particularism. One event a year doesn't seem like much to ask for. (I've never attended Mich Fest, nor do I ever intend to.)

As to "transmen, male-pronoun-using, transmasculine, male-butch-3rd gendered people" having access to Mich Fest.... Apparently, a decision was made by the Mich Fest powers-that-be to include all WBW regardless of how they currently identify. It might not be your choice or mine (not necessarily for the same reasons), but Mich Fest isn't our pop stand. Me, I respect other people's boundaries, as I insist they respect mine.



One of the worst elements of 2nd Wave Feminism, in my estimation, was the pressure mostly white and/or privileged Feminists brought to bear on all women to adopt their agenda. And when "we" (lesbians, WOC, B&Fs....) didn't, we were castigated, vilified and tagged as being - %*#^@.

Am I doing that?

Heart, nothing I've said reflects on you personally.... Only you can answer the "Am I doing that?" question for yourself. I have no way of knowing.



What I am reminded of, (thanks to this thread), is that patriarchy makes it hard for us to trust each other. - Heart

Exactly.... My "trust" isn't garnered when my personal agenda is set for me. Nor is it nurtured when I'm pressured or guilted into supporting people, places and things that don't "speak" to me, honor my boundaries or identity, or my take on reality.

Again, is that what you have experienced from my posts here? Because truly that was not my intention or goal. And I wonder, feel both mystified, confused, and - okay yes, upset that we are in this place.

We're not in a bad place. We're dialogging.



When I talk feminism, I highlight issues of race/gender that feminism erased or essentialized. When I talk gender theory, I highlight issues of feminism and patriarchy that gender theory erased and denigrated. So, lesbians think I'm being anti-feminist, and queers think I'm being anti-genderist. Guess I can't win. But none of it - NONE of it is intended to personally erase anyone else's experience or choices. It's all in the interest of dialogue, intersection, and growth. I was kinda hoping I wouldn't have to make that disclaimer in this thread.


Heart, I trust your good intentions. No disclaimers are required.

I'm not calling you out. I'm calling out any and all assumptions, by anyone, that "we" have to be on the same line of gender or Feminist theory to be mutually supportive around some specific issues. The 'some specific issues' point is key to me.

I evolved in and out of gender theory. I don't see myself using it as a template for my life again. It doesn't speak to me on many levels.

I also don't believe my Feminism has to be anyone else's Feminism.... Which is to say, you'll never hear my Feminist-self saying you're anti-feminist.... As to queers thinking you're an anti-genderist because you won't drink the Kool-Aid unexamined, in it's entirety.... That's one of the things that turned me off to gender theory - i.e. it's adherents' insistence on unquestioning, doctrinal fervency.

I don't trust anything, or anyone, that insists upon unquestioning allegiance - OR ELSE! I had a belly full of that stuff as a Catholic. PLEEEEK ! ! ! The only thing I'm unconditionally loyal to is critical thinking.

[Heart]

Chazz, Thanks for your responses, your efforts to clarify, and your willingness to dialogue. I know there was some personal clouding, and appreciate that you took the time.

Heart

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Heart

Chazz, Thanks for your responses, your efforts to clarify, and your willingness to dialogue. I know there was some personal clouding, and appreciate that you took the time.

Heart

You're welcome, Heart.

"Clouding", maybe so, necessarily cautious, likely and understandably.

I think you've been unfairly roughed-up by people unwilling to listen, hear, or engage respectfully. Their loss because you have a lot of insightful and thought provoking things to share. I learn a lot from you.

Thank you, too, for putting up with my terse writing style. The unfortunate byproduct of too much report writing for Da Sistem.

[AtLast]

Just wanted to chime in to say that I appreciate the respectfulness in this thread. It can get so hard to exchange ideas on such sensitive topics. I am taking in many different ideas from the posts as they are giving me more insight into how each of us has experienced things from our own lenses. Also, there isn't any of the "hidden gem" slights wrapped in sugar that only serve to divide us instead of listening to each other.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Just wanted to chime in to say that I appreciate the respectfulness in this thread. It can get so hard to exchange ideas on such sensitive topics. I am taking in many different ideas from the posts as they are giving me more insight into how each of us has experienced things from our own lenses. Also, there isn't any of the "hidden gem" slights wrapped in sugar that only serve to divide us instead of listening to each other.

It is refreshing and I, too, appreciate it.

It really helps to be able to express many different opinions and perspectives and reminders that are a tribute to the diverse group that we are. And I also appreciate that we can be honest about our own truths and see them as a bridge to each other and to further dialogue.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Just wanted to chime in to say that I appreciate the respectfulness in this thread. It can get so hard to exchange ideas on such sensitive topics. I am taking in many different ideas from the posts as they are giving me more insight into how each of us has experienced things from our own lenses. Also, there isn't any of the "hidden gem" slights wrapped in sugar that only serve to divide us instead of listening to each other.

Originally Posted by Kobi

It is refreshing and I, too, appreciate it.

It really helps to be able to express many different opinions and perspectives and reminders that are a tribute to the diverse group that we are. And I also appreciate that we can be honest about our own truths and see them as a bridge to each other and to further dialogue.

One of you please help me understand this.

How can either of you talk about how "refreshing" it is that everyone is being so "respectful" in this thread?

There is blatant bigotry of transwomen going on in this thread. Did you guys just miss that part, or are you ok with that part? Really, I want to understand this.

There is more than one lesbian transwoman on this message board. They are a PART of our community. Do you not think they are reading the words that have been written here? Do you have any freaking concept as to how it might be making them feel?

I agree with you, AtLast, there is no "hidden gem" slights...there are right out there in the open!

Yes, I know that June handled this, but I cannot sit idly by and not have some member of the community acknowledge how shitty this is, so I am doing it, even though I do not belong in this thread.

Chazz, we have lesbian transwomen here. They are an important part of our community. Please consider that the next time you speak about "once-male", people.

(P.S. I will not be available to post again until Sunday, Good nIght, all).