Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[dreadgeek]

So, in order for lesbians like you to be heard, to be validated, it was necessary for someone to be able to use a term that was rather bigoted. Look, if the only way that lesbians like you can feel that this is your space and that your concerns are being addressed, is for women like me to have to just put up with terms like 'once-male' being thrown around without challenge, then okay. Okay, here, doesn't mean I'm going away. It does mean that that is a piece of information that is useful to have and I'm glad I now know.

I am not arguing--and my presence here does not militate for--not airing issues that need to be aired. Yet, I have two questions for you:

1) If, instead of saying something about transwomen, the statement had been that black women--for whatever reason--had no legitimate place within lesbian community and had people spoken up against it, would you still feel that lesbians like you had been silenced? If not, why not? Why is it that, if all you knew was that I'm a black lesbian, it would be unacceptable to say that 'women like that' (who are not, after all, lesbians like you) are not legitimately apart of this community but since it is transwomen, that is in bounds?

2) Is there any amount of time, any amount of effort, any action whatsoever that would EVER earn a transwoman the right--in your eyes--to legitimately claim a seat at the table?

I, too, was enjoying the conversation right up until the point where it became clear that transwomen--in the eyes of some--aren't woman enough to deserve to call themselves lesbian. At that point, I had a decision to make; do I risk starting WW III or do I just let someone else speak up and see what happens. I chose the latter path.

I think these issues are important. I think they need to be discussed. I don't, however, think they need to be discussed at the cost of letting statements of the "transwomen, you are not welcome here". If some transwoman did X, where X is some horrible thing, then she should have to answer for that. Not because she is a transwoman, but because she did some act that was unacceptable. Being trans should not make one subject to a lighter standard or a heavier standard but the same standard, as much as is possible. But that's not what was being put forth. What was being put forth was the idea that transwomen qua transwomen are not, cannot and should not be welcome in lesbian community. Not actions, simply the fact that the woman in question has a Y chromosome and that's enough.

This statement is not meant to be silencing, nor is it meant to be putting lesbians like you in their place. I am no apologist for patriarchy. I feel that my years in this community--and by this community I mean the lesbian community--have earned me a place at the table. I earned it at the Whiptail Lizard Lounge in San Francisco, where I spent two years volunteering every weekend. I earned it going around the Bay Area in the mid-nineties, when the Internet was just starting to come to public consciousness and either wiring up organizations that helped women, building their web sites, or training women how to use computers. It was earned teaching classes at a DV shelter so women could use the web to find safe, permanent housing for themselves and their children. It was earned by doing *precisely* the opposite of what Chazz said transwomen did. Instead of showing up and saying "seat me", I showed up, asked permission to enter, and then said "how can I help". When I came out as trans on this board last year, I talked about asking whether or not women like me were welcome at the Whiptail Lizard Lounge. I got blasted because people said I shouldn't have had to ask for permission and maybe they were right. But I had read my feminist theory, I knew about male privilege and I wasn't about to be one of those transwomen who pretended that since we had been at war with our own bodies since childhood, we could pretend that male privilege never had anything to do with us. Instead, I intuitively grasped that the way to approach things was to show up, be useful, live my feminism, and I would gain acceptance. It worked spectacularly and that attitude has served me well for 22 years. It serves me well to this day.

To this day, I still try to give more than I take from the lesbian community because I like the feeling of being a sister who, when the hard work needs to be done, is right up at the front, painting the walls, or dumping the trash, or doing whatever needs doing whether it is pleasant or easy or not. That, to me, is part and parcel of being a sister.

This isn't an apologia nor is it asking for your acceptance. I am too old and too strong to need the acceptance of anyone else. It is a statement that regardless of what others might think, I AM a strong black woman and I AM a lesbian who is proud to be a lesbian. I will never apologize for that nor will I ever apologize for standing up for myself. I will also not apologize for being grateful that people stood up and spoke for women who might otherwise not have been spoken for.

In sisterly spirit
Aj

[Kobi]

Aj,

I have a great deal of respect for you.

I am dismayed to learn you and others saw something going on in this thread that I didnt. And rather than speak to it, even privately, you and others decided to sit back and see what happened. And, now, after the fact, you and others almost seem to be patting yourselves on the back for having knowledge others didnt. You sat back and did nothing but it is ok to chastize others after the fact?

Wow. Kind of a throw back to women against women days of the old feminism.

I, of course, feel you set me and this thread up. And that feels pretty shitty. Not surprising but still feels shitty.

And I am getting getting really tired of taking the brunt of this. I did not say a freakin thing about transwomen but the entire thing is getting dumped on me. I didnt see it. I didnt understand the implications of it.

I am happy to own my shit. I anxiously await the day others begin owning theirs.

Oh btw, thanks to those "friends" of mine who had the need to distance themselves. What a powerful message that sends along.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

So, in order for lesbians like you to be heard, to be validated, it was necessary for someone to be able to use a term that was rather bigoted. Look, if the only way that lesbians like you can feel that this is your space and that your concerns are being addressed, is for women like me to have to just put up with terms like 'once-male' being thrown around without challenge, then okay. Okay, here, doesn't mean I'm going away. It does mean that that is a piece of information that is useful to have and I'm glad I now know.

I am not arguing--and my presence here does not militate for--not airing issues that need to be aired. Yet, I have two questions for you:

1) If, instead of saying something about transwomen, the statement had been that black women--for whatever reason--had no legitimate place within lesbian community and had people spoken up against it, would you still feel that lesbians like you had been silenced? If not, why not? Why is it that, if all you knew was that I'm a black lesbian, it would be unacceptable to say that 'women like that' (who are not, after all, lesbians like you) are not legitimately apart of this community but since it is transwomen, that is in bounds?

2) Is there any amount of time, any amount of effort, any action whatsoever that would EVER earn a transwoman the right--in your eyes--to legitimately claim a seat at the table?

I, too, was enjoying the conversation right up until the point where it became clear that transwomen--in the eyes of some--aren't woman enough to deserve to call themselves lesbian. At that point, I had a decision to make; do I risk starting WW III or do I just let someone else speak up and see what happens. I chose the latter path.

I think these issues are important. I think they need to be discussed. I don't, however, think they need to be discussed at the cost of letting statements of the "transwomen, you are not welcome here". If some transwoman did X, where X is some horrible thing, then she should have to answer for that. Not because she is a transwoman, but because she did some act that was unacceptable. Being trans should not make one subject to a lighter standard or a heavier standard but the same standard, as much as is possible. But that's not what was being put forth. What was being put forth was the idea that transwomen qua transwomen are not, cannot and should not be welcome in lesbian community. Not actions, simply the fact that the woman in question has a Y chromosome and that's enough.

This statement is not meant to be silencing, nor is it meant to be putting lesbians like you in their place. I am no apologist for patriarchy. I feel that my years in this community--and by this community I mean the lesbian community--have earned me a place at the table. I earned it at the Whiptail Lizard Lounge in San Francisco, where I spent two years volunteering every weekend. I earned it going around the Bay Area in the mid-nineties, when the Internet was just starting to come to public consciousness and either wiring up organizations that helped women, building their web sites, or training women how to use computers. It was earned teaching classes at a DV shelter so women could use the web to find safe, permanent housing for themselves and their children. It was earned by doing *precisely* the opposite of what Chazz said transwomen did. Instead of showing up and saying "seat me", I showed up, asked permission to enter, and then said "how can I help". When I came out as trans on this board last year, I talked about asking whether or not women like me were welcome at the Whiptail Lizard Lounge. I got blasted because people said I shouldn't have had to ask for permission and maybe they were right. But I had read my feminist theory, I knew about male privilege and I wasn't about to be one of those transwomen who pretended that since we had been at war with our own bodies since childhood, we could pretend that male privilege never had anything to do with us. Instead, I intuitively grasped that the way to approach things was to show up, be useful, live my feminism, and I would gain acceptance. It worked spectacularly and that attitude has served me well for 22 years. It serves me well to this day.

To this day, I still try to give more than I take from the lesbian community because I like the feeling of being a sister who, when the hard work needs to be done, is right up at the front, painting the walls, or dumping the trash, or doing whatever needs doing whether it is pleasant or easy or not. That, to me, is part and parcel of being a sister.

This isn't an apologia nor is it asking for your acceptance. I am too old and too strong to need the acceptance of anyone else. It is a statement that regardless of what others might think, I AM a strong black woman and I AM a lesbian who is proud to be a lesbian. I will never apologize for that nor will I ever apologize for standing up for myself. I will also not apologize for being grateful that people stood up and spoke for women who might otherwise not have been spoken for.

In sisterly spirit
Aj

[Heart]

Kobi - Aj had just read herself termed as a "once-man" yet you think she owed YOU something? She wasn't setting you up by withdrawing, she was protecting herself - which she has every right to do. Taking the victim position here really stretches the limits of credulity.

Nothing is being dumped on you, no one is holding you solely accountable for this thread, or what happened in it, but it's also nobody else's fault or responsibility that you didn't see something or understand it. Least of all Aj.

Originally Posted by Kobi

Aj,

I have a great deal of respect for you.

I am dismayed to learn you and others saw something going on in this thread that I didnt. And rather than speak to it, even privately, you and others decided to sit back and see what happened. And, now, after the fact, you and others almost seem to be patting yourselves on the back for having knowledge others didnt. You sat back and did nothing but it is ok to chastize others after the fact?

Wow. Kind of a throw back to women against women days of the old feminism.

I, of course, feel you set me and this thread up. And that feels pretty shitty. Not surprising but still feels shitty.

And I am getting getting really tired of taking the brunt of this. I did not say a freakin thing about transwomen but the entire thing is getting dumped on me. I didnt see it. I didnt understand the implications of it.

I am happy to own my shit. I anxiously await the day others begin owning theirs.

Oh btw, thanks to those "friends" of mine who had the need to distance themselves. What a powerful message that sends along.

[dreadgeek]

Kobi:

What was I supposed to say? I didn't say anything because I was not about to make Chazz correct. Not giving them that satisfaction. I've walked into that trap enough times to know what the snare line looks like. The term 'once males' gets thrown out, I object loudly about it and I'm throwing about male privilege. I defend myself, I'm doing it wrong. I don't defend myself, I'm doing it wrong. I didn't post initially because I don't like to post when I'm upset and seeing 'once males' was upsetting. I am not putting this on you. I don't blame people for things they did not do--I don't do it because I have spent 45 walking this Earth, carrying the weight of other people's actions on my back. If I had a dollar for every time someone had asked me why so many blacks are on welfare, I'd make Warren Buffet, George Soros and Oprah *combined* look like paupers. So I don't hold you responsible for the words that others used.

Set you up, how? Precisely how could I possibly have set you up in this thread? I am genuinely mystified by that accusation. Now, I admit, I am not the queen of social graces so there are things I do that I miss but here, I'm not sure how I could possibly have set you up. I participated on this thread like I do on other threads. What could I have done differently where you would not have been set up?

When you say "having knowledge others didn't" do you mean the knowledge I'm a transwoman? Look, up until about a year ago NO ONE on this board knew. I didn't say anything, because I didn't think it relevant, until someone said something that I found sexist and in order to blunt the accusation of transphobia when I called them out on it, I disclosed that I was a transwoman so the *last* accusation that could reasonably be leveled at me was that I held bigoted attitudes about transgendered people. I didn't put it out there on this thread because, as a general rule, I don't announce my being transgendered. There was certainly no way in hell, I was going to just introduce that into the conversation unless it became necessary to do so. My heuristic, another one that has served me well--although it puts me at odds with many in the trans community, FTM and MTF alike--is that people get to know either when I choose to let them know or if they are in the circle of people who need or have a right to know. Need or right to know is if you are my doctor, my therapist, or someone I want to date. Right to know is if you are someone I want to date. Everyone else, I disclose in the manner of my choosing. So I was not about to come in here and open up with "hi, before we get into the meat of this discussion, I'm a transwoman, just so you know".

Of all the things I'm doing, patting myself on the back is pretty well near the bottom of the list. Keeping myself calm and reminding myself that this is my community too? Yes, I'm doing that. Reminding myself that no one can take away the last two decades of my life and the peace I've found in my body? Yes, there's a bit of that going on as well. Second-guessing myself? Plenty of that as well. Keeping my emotions in check so every word I type is carefully thought out? Absolutely! But self-congratulations? No, not even in the same zip code as to what is going on with me right now. I see nothing to congratulate at any rate. I feel gratitude, but not congratulatory.

To me, every iteration of this discussion in the community--a discussion that has gone on since *at least* 1973--is a loss for us all. I see nothing for anyone to feel congratulatory for.

Cheers
Aj

[Kobi]

Aj,

I did not know your history. I appreciate you sharing this.

I also did not know what "once man" or "WBW" meant. There is a presumption that people should know this stuff. I dont. I was having a hard enough time figuring out the jist of posts. Thus, underlying innuendo flew right past me. I am still going back over posts trying to understand.

It seems to me, if you see something derogatory going on, you either speak to it publicly or at least privately. It is never safe to assume someone sees something or understands it or knows the implications of it. To do so is a disservice to oneself and to others.

And, to me, one does not need to use a 2x4 or a baseball bat to make a point.

I do, however, understand that one is often put in a no win situation and can sympathize with this without any problem whatsoever.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Kobi:

What was I supposed to say? I didn't say anything because I was not about to make Chazz correct. Not giving them that satisfaction. I've walked into that trap enough times to know what the snare line looks like. The term 'once males' gets thrown out, I object loudly about it and I'm throwing about male privilege. I defend myself, I'm doing it wrong. I don't defend myself, I'm doing it wrong. I didn't post initially because I don't like to post when I'm upset and seeing 'once males' was upsetting. I am not putting this on you. I don't blame people for things they did not do--I don't do it because I have spent 45 walking this Earth, carrying the weight of other people's actions on my back. If I had a dollar for every time someone had asked me why so many blacks are on welfare, I'd make Warren Buffet, George Soros and Oprah *combined* look like paupers. So I don't hold you responsible for the words that others used.

Set you up, how? Precisely how could I possibly have set you up in this thread? I am genuinely mystified by that accusation. Now, I admit, I am not the queen of social graces so there are things I do that I miss but here, I'm not sure how I could possibly have set you up. I participated on this thread like I do on other threads. What could I have done differently where you would not have been set up?

When you say "having knowledge others didn't" do you mean the knowledge I'm a transwoman? Look, up until about a year ago NO ONE on this board knew. I didn't say anything, because I didn't think it relevant, until someone said something that I found sexist and in order to blunt the accusation of transphobia when I called them out on it, I disclosed that I was a transwoman so the *last* accusation that could reasonably be leveled at me was that I held bigoted attitudes about transgendered people. I didn't put it out there on this thread because, as a general rule, I don't announce my being transgendered. There was certainly no way in hell, I was going to just introduce that into the conversation unless it became necessary to do so. My heuristic, another one that has served me well--although it puts me at odds with many in the trans community, FTM and MTF alike--is that people get to know either when I choose to let them know or if they are in the circle of people who need or have a right to know. Need or right to know is if you are my doctor, my therapist, or someone I want to date. Right to know is if you are someone I want to date. Everyone else, I disclose in the manner of my choosing. So I was not about to come in here and open up with "hi, before we get into the meat of this discussion, I'm a transwoman, just so you know".

Of all the things I'm doing, patting myself on the back is pretty well near the bottom of the list. Keeping myself calm and reminding myself that this is my community too? Yes, I'm doing that. Reminding myself that no one can take away the last two decades of my life and the peace I've found in my body? Yes, there's a bit of that going on as well. Second-guessing myself? Plenty of that as well. Keeping my emotions in check so every word I type is carefully thought out? Absolutely! But self-congratulations? No, not even in the same zip code as to what is going on with me right now. I see nothing to congratulate at any rate. I feel gratitude, but not congratulatory.

To me, every iteration of this discussion in the community--a discussion that has gone on since *at least* 1973--is a loss for us all. I see nothing for anyone to feel congratulatory for.

Cheers
Aj

[Medusa]

There are a couple of things I need to say, mostly because I can't get it out of my head and partly because I'm hoarse from saying "NUH UHHH" at my screen.

First, (and Kobi, this isn't meant to pick on you so please don't take it that way), I want to clarify how and why the "Lesbian Zone" came into creation on this site. It actually was out of multiple discussions but mostly because AtLast wouldn't let it go (wink at you, Atlast, you know I adore your tenacity!). My recollection wasn't that there was a throng of angry Lesbians demanding it, it was that we had a few folks who thought it would feel more validating so I begrudgingly implemented it.
The "begrudgingly" part is still there. Vehemently.
I need to talk about that or my head might explode.
I have said 100 times that a Lesbian zone on this website is redundant. To make a "zone within a zone" on a website where the core/essence/foundation is Lesbian is redundant and has bothered me since day one.
Not saying that I haven't found it to be super delightful at times, but it has pushed some buttons for me that I have been very apprehensive to talk about. Until now.

My "begrudging" implementation of the "Lesbian" zone is not because I'm an agent of the Patriarchy and am wanting to deny the voices of Lesbians. It's because I was and am super fearful of creating a space that has the HUGE potential to become militant and separatist and unwelcoming to Transwomen, Transmen, and even BUTCHES based on my own experiences as an out Lesbian of 20 years.

Is that Lesbian-phobic? Remember, I'm a Lesbian.

That is me, as a Lesbian, acknowledging that we as Lesbians have the ability to fence ourselves into tight spaces based on identity, politics, and gender theory even if we, as Lesbians, are often super pissed off when someone who is not identified as a Lesbian talks openly about this.

There have been instances of denial on this very site where someone who identifies as Lesbian tries to paint this rosy picture of Lesbian history where no instance of misandry, identity-fencing, presentation-fencing, separatism, or militancy has ever existed and the very idea of mentioning a diametrically opposed experience is enough to invoke cries of "unsafe!" or "anti-Lesbian!" or worse, the "Patriarchy".

Well guess what, I'm not the fucking Patriarchy. I'm a Lesbian and I have witnessed and been part of it. And I'd venture to guess that the vast majority, if not all of us, have experienced or contributed to it in one form or another at some point in our Lesbian lives.

To deny that does not do us any service. In fact, it's privileged and inauthentic.

Let a Transman talk about his experience of growing up in a Lesbian commune, identified as a Lesbian, and make a statement like "had a I been like most Lesbians 30 years ago, I would have hated him based on his gender" and we'll be talking about it a year later.
We'll also say that because one Transman made that statement that the entire BFP experience is anti-Lesbian.
Let the Mods and myself say "We could have done that better" and we'll talk about how we're quick to call out racism and transphobia but we let anti-Lesbian sentiment slide on some premise of Patriarchal adaptation.
Even if we're Lesbians.
Even if the Transman in question comes back to clarify the context.
Even if he further clarifies that he was talking about the "Lesbians he knew".
Even if he's no longer a member of this site.
Even if it was said in the Red Zone where we have said multiple times we DO NOT MODERATE.
Even if we create a Lesbian zone, add language in multiple places to our TOS, and do our best to tap that shit.

Do I sound butthurt and defensive? I am.

I'm a Lesbian who was called "anti Lesbian" by other Lesbians. I took that shit hard and I take it hard now when, a year later, we are still talking about it.

I felt that because it was a Transman making the comment, his history of living as a Lesbian (which he spoke heartfully about) was erased and that his head would need to be affixed to a stick to satisfy that we had taken the issue seriously.

I felt that there was some serious denial going on about the militancy that can happen in Feminist and Lesbian circles. I'm a Lesbian and I can acknowledge it. But if a Transman even alludes to it, it's seen as Lesbian-bashing. What is that about?

We have this space and someone makes a shitty comment about Transwomen.
We had the Red Zone and someone made a shitty comment about Lesbians.
I keep rolling it over in my head how speaking about something you actually experienced (even if the filter is fucked up) is NOT. THE. SAME. as invoking hurtful and highly-insensitive terminology such as "once men" in a "Lesbian Zone" where Transwomen have experienced historical marginalization.

I am a Lesbian and I support my Lesbian sisters. ALL of them. And that means that I hold in my memory the echos of all of the MWMF's where Transwomen were treated like dogs outside the gates. That means that I don't sweep that shit under the rug or pretend like that very same separatist thinking doesn't STILL exist. Because it does.

We are all responsible for this space. Not just this zone, but this site. My hope was that we'd all be invested in sharing our experiences with one another and learning from one another.
One of the things that triggers me about having separate Lesbian space on a Lesbian site is that it pushes so many of my personal buttons about identity fencing. It becomes easy to discount voices as "Patriarchy" even if those same voice share our history.

I think we can celebrate our shared Lesbian herstory and listen to the voices of those who do share, will share, and have shared that path, even if those voices are now deeper.