Ask a trans person!

[Liam]

Given the fact that T-Kingdom is based in Taiwan, I don't know that reporting them to the local Better Business Bureau would be very effective. Spreading the word to those who might want to do business with T-Kingdom, will probably have a greater impact on their business.

[wolfbittenpoet]

Definitely hit up the different sites so people know. I had issues with T Kingdom just getting information so I decided not to buy. Glad I didn't send for them.
Sorry you had bad experience though.

[lettertodaddy]

Pardon me if this has been asked before, and please understand that I mean no ill will by it, but this is something that I have been curious about for a while now. I'm going to need a little space to work it out, so bear with me, if you don't mind.

Typically speaking, I like woman-identified butches, meaning that she embraces those sex characteristics/biological characteristics that make her female, and while her gender presentation may be masculine, she uses feminine pronouns to refer to herself and doesn't want to be a man.

I have noticed that there are a lot of butches here -- some of whom are transitioning, some of whom are not -- who use masculine pronouns and names to identify themselves. They don't consider themselves female or women, their gender presentation and identity is male. They think of themselves as men.

My question is this: where does the butch end and the transman begin?

In my head, butch has a very specific connotation, and for me, butch = woman/female. I am not saying whether this is wrong or right, just it is how I think. I am willing to have my thought process challenged and broadened, however, because after all, butch or transman, I'm a sucker for a pretty smile and a swagger.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by lettertodaddy

Pardon me if this has been asked before, and please understand that I mean no ill will by it, but this is something that I have been curious about for a while now. I'm going to need a little space to work it out, so bear with me, if you don't mind.

Typically speaking, I like woman-identified butches, meaning that she embraces those sex characteristics/biological characteristics that make her female, and while her gender presentation may be masculine, she uses feminine pronouns to refer to herself and doesn't want to be a man.

I have noticed that there are a lot of butches here -- some of whom are transitioning, some of whom are not -- who use masculine pronouns and names to identify themselves. They don't consider themselves female or women, their gender presentation and identity is male. They think of themselves as men.

My question is this: where does the butch end and the transman begin?

In my head, butch has a very specific connotation, and for me, butch = woman/female. I am not saying whether this is wrong or right, just it is how I think. I am willing to have my thought process challenged and broadened, however, because after all, butch or transman, I'm a sucker for a pretty smile and a swagger.

It's different for everyone, and I don't think there is a particular thing you can point to and say, "this is where butch ends and transman begins." It's important to keep in mind that who you are on the inside and your physical sex don't always match up in the hetero/cisgender-normative categories. I, for example, identify as a transguy, and not just simply male. The trans is part of who I am. There are guys who ID as male only but were born with female bodies. There are self-identified butches who have or want top surgery but still consider themselves female. There are male-ID'd butches who don't want to physically transition, and some who do but still consider themselves to also be butch. There are butches who consider BUTCH to be their gender. Gender isn't something that can be quantified and put into a spectrum where you can easily parse it into categories of trans or butch, etc. Butch can mean different things to different people, or it can be a both/and type of thing. The best thing to do is ask each individual what their ID means to them. I don't think asking someone that is going to ruffle any feathers, so long as it is done respectfully. Asking someone their preferred pronoun instead of just assuming it is one way or the other, is respectful too.

Sorry if this isn't particularly helpful, lol. It's just complicated and there is no way of getting around that.

[lettertodaddy]

Yeah, for sure it's complicated. That's why I wanted to hear from a range of people. I know there's no singular butch or trans identity. I'm just interested in taking a general survey of opinions to see what others think.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by lettertodaddy

Yeah, for sure it's complicated. That's why I wanted to hear from a range of people. I know there's no singular butch or trans identity. I'm just interested in taking a general survey of opinions to see what others think.

I think that atomiczombie really hit the nail on the head with his post.

To answer the question in the simplest form... There is no place where butch ends and transman begins, they are separate identities...until they no longer are.

In terms of butch always equaling woman/female, as atomic said, many would argue that. Some would say that "in the beginning", butch = woman/female. Some would argue that. Depends are where you were/are/what you read about "the beginning".

[Corkey]

In the beginning there was the Human, somewhere along the line we all wanted to be special, and voila gender markers, sexual preferences, linear thinking. Till one day we all jump off the line and return to the circle where we are all equal, special in our own right, and relate to each other the way we are want to be called.
Gender is a construct of the human mind, it is not our sex, or our end of being, except when it is, and then if we want.
I am exhausted and waxing poetic.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by lettertodaddy

My question is this: where does the butch end and the transman begin?

In my head, butch has a very specific connotation, and for me, butch = woman/female. I am not saying whether this is wrong or right, just it is how I think. I am willing to have my thought process challenged and broadened, however, because after all, butch or transman, I'm a sucker for a pretty smile and a swagger.

I don't know that the person who considered herself a stone butch for over 30 years, will ever be tossed, she helped me navigate my way through the world, for most of my life. She nurtured that little boy who had become locked up inside of me, she helped me realise that it was okay to be true to myself, and she taught me how to be a man. Unlike some, I no longer identify as butch, but I can not disavow such a huge part of my history.

[lettertodaddy]

Originally Posted by Liam

I don't know that the person who considered herself a stone butch for over 30 years, will ever be tossed, she helped me navigate my way through the world, for most of my life. She nurtured that little boy who had become locked up inside of me, she helped me realise that it was okay to be true to myself, and she taught me how to be a man. Unlike some, I no longer identify as butch, but I can not disavow such a huge part of my history.

Thank you for your honest reply, Liam. I really appreciate it.

[kannon]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I agree with J. Mason. You should report this to the Better Business Bureau. Also, consider Yelp and other online review sites.

This company has some serious problems and they are taking advantage of their customers.

Originally Posted by Liam

Given the fact that T-Kingdom is based in Taiwan, I don't know that reporting them to the local Better Business Bureau would be very effective. Spreading the word to those who might want to do business with T-Kingdom, will probably have a greater impact on their business.

Originally Posted by wolfbittenpoet

Definitely hit up the different sites so people know. I had issues with T Kingdom just getting information so I decided not to buy. Glad I didn't send for them.
Sorry you had bad experience though.

Yeah, I may challenge the charge through my bank and paypal. Hopefully, paypal will redflag them and stop letting them do business (exchange money) through them. I'm just so busy right now. I'm going to graduate school full-time, working full-time and remodeling my house. I just put up 3 new ceiling fans. Oy vey, I need a wife, a partner, an amigo/amiga.

Hopefully, no one else will be advantage of by them. I just want to warn everyone about this company because they are widely known in the trans community and many people recommend them. I've ordered from them twice. The first time I had no problems. The only complaint I had about the one binder I received was the shoulder straps. The straps are made out of a hard inflexible material that pooches out as the binder rides up.

Overall, I feel like the company is a scam. I'll never give them a dime of my money again.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by lettertodaddy

and while her gender presentation may be masculine, she uses feminine pronouns to refer to herself and doesn't want to be a man.

I have noticed that there are a lot of butches here -- some of whom are transitioning, some of whom are not -- who use masculine pronouns and names to identify themselves. They don't consider themselves female or women, their gender presentation and identity is male. They think of themselves as men.

My question is this: where does the butch end and the transman begin?

I appreciate that your question here and your other posts have been done in a respectful way. Many of the guys have already given their takes on this and really many here have been answering this question and similar ones for a few years now.

Now, I will give you my version. I have wondered for years, where does Butch end and Transman begin. For me, it is a blurry line. I have always seen "Butch" as a third gender. I have never seen myself as a woman, female bodied, yes, but not the same as other women. Not better, just not the same.

I cling to my identity as a butch because it is how I have seen myself for most of my life, since my teen years. Back in the day, there was not the "Trans" option. This opened up quite a bit for myself and others similar to me. It changed my thinking about gender. For me, I can no longer stand by the binary model of gender. Male or Female and nothing in between. I have "transitioned" but that has only aligned my outer presentation with more of how I see myself, masculine appearing. On my inside, I am pretty much the same person.

I do not want to be a "man." I want to express who I am, how I feel on the inside. I feel and express primarily in the masculine. I also am very cognizant of my history, I was born into a female body. I do not view this as a mistake. I see it as part of my life journey and why I am here. In fact being born into a female body and primarily expressing as masculine has been a gift, a plus. For many years I did not see it as a gift, now I do.

For me, how could I ignore where I came from? Where this round of my journey began? I am fortunate that I have an identical twin sister. I have had this feminine expression mirroring me and I mirroring her for a lifetime. We are made of the same DNA and yet express so differently.

There are times I do use the term "Transman" to explain myself. In my mind and for me, Transman and Butch are at times the same. This is not true for others. I think to make it easier at times, I just use the short hand and inclusive term, Queer to self identify.

[lettertodaddy]

Thank you for your response, Greyson. You've given me much to think about.