Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

Slater · 08-31-2011, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazz

HOLY COW ! ! ! ! In one swipe of lexical incohesion, I lost my butch womanhood.

Ummm, no. Nowhere did I say that the identity of butch woman was not also valid. This One True Way thing is your mindset not mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazz

No, Slater.... Adult females will always be women.

If all the word "woman" means is adult female, then yes an adult female is always a woman. But the word woman is used to describe a gender/gender role. For instance, why would Cheryl and Heart have been concerned earlier in this very thread that the elimination of genders would eliminate the category of women entirely.

I would argue that the what makes it seem like adult female = woman is that gender roles were so strictly and inexorably tied to sex that they were regarded as equivalent. The words sex and gender are used interchangably in society as though they are the same. How many forms ask for gender when really what they are asking for is sex? I can not even begin to imagine how you can suggest that the conflation of sex and gender is a recent development.

Your worldview is as nonsensical and unpersuasive to me as mine is to you. Neither of those seems likely to change.

Chazz · 08-31-2011, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slater

Ummm, no. Nowhere did I say that the identity of butch woman was not also valid. This One True Way thing is your mindset not mine.

If all the word "woman" means is adult female, then yes an adult female is always a woman. But the word woman is used to describe a gender/gender role. For instance, why would Cheryl and Heart have been concerned earlier in this very thread that the elimination of genders would eliminate the category of women entirely.

I would argue that the what makes it seem like adult female = woman is that gender roles were so strictly and inexorably tied to sex that they were regarded as equivalent. The words sex and gender are used interchangably in society as though they are the same. How many forms ask for gender when really what they are asking for is sex? I can not even begin to imagine how you can suggest that the conflation of sex and gender is a recent development.

Your worldview is as nonsensical and unpersuasive to me as mine is to you. Neither of those seems likely to change.

And your use of the English language.....well, never mind.

SEX (biology) = female/male, woman/man, girl/boy (nouns)

GENDER (a cultural construct based on sex) = feminine/masculine, womanly/manly, girlish/boyish (adjectives)

Thinker · 08-31-2011, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazz

And your use of the English language.....well, never mind.

SEX (biology) = female/male, woman/man, girl/boy (nouns)

GENDER (a cultural construct based on sex) = feminine/masculine, womanly/manly, girlish/boyish (adjectives)

Chazz,

We have received yet another report of one of your posts for what is deemed intentional rudeness. There really isn't a good reason why you can't engage with other members here, even ones with whom you disagree, in a more respectful manner.

You're obviously intelligent. It's not necessary to put others down in order to prove that, so refrain from doing so.

Consider this a warning. If you continue to make it a point to demean others, you will be put on a timeout.

If you have any questions, you may contact me, the Admin, or any other moderator in private.

Thinker (moderator)

citybutch · 08-31-2011, 08:33 PM

*sigh*

I am going to post this one more time and then I give up... LOL... Been making the same point for oh so many years and it just gets lost...

Anyhoo:

"Woman
From the Old English "Wyfmon," meaning, "wife.""

http://www.westegg.com/etymology/

I dunno ... the roots of words matter to me... It's why in so many ways I love to reclaim the words like Crone... which they believe comes from early dutch for "old ewe"... To Crone means to "pick out and reject the old ewes from a flock" according to the OED. Subsequently applied in a derogatory sense to old females (and in the patriarchal way.. old women). To ME this is a reclaimable word.... or Hag (oh, Hag is MARVELOUS!), "1....an evil spirit, demon, or infernal being in female form; applied in early use to the Furies, Harpies, etc.... 2.... a witch.." OED. There are so many entries on Hag!

My friend Mary was so into reclaiming these words... and made magic out of them. They came alive with her....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazz

SEX (biology) = female/male, woman/man, girl/boy (nouns)

GENDER (a cultural construct based on sex) = feminine/masculine, womanly/manly, girlish/boyish (adjectives)

Jess · 08-31-2011, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citybutch

*sigh*

I am going to post this one more time and then I give up... LOL... Been making the same point for oh so many years and it just gets lost...

Anyhoo:

"Woman
From the Old English "Wyfmon," meaning, "wife.""

http://www.westegg.com/etymology/

I dunno ... the roots of words matter to me... It's why in so many ways I love to reclaim the words like Crone... which they believe comes from early dutch for "old ewe"... To Crone means to "pick out and reject the old ewes from a flock" according to the OED. Subsequently applied in a derogatory sense to old females (and in the patriarchal way.. old women). To ME this is a reclaimable word.... or Hag (oh, Hag is MARVELOUS!), "1....an evil spirit, demon, or infernal being in female form; applied in early use to the Furies, Harpies, etc.... 2.... a witch.." OED. There are so many entries on Hag!

My friend Mary was so into reclaiming these words... and made magic out of them. They came alive with her....

While I totally understand your disdain for the origins of the word "woman", I still can not find the OED current definition of "woman", so I do not understand why it is so offensive today.

Much of the discord in this thread has been about the "traditional" definition of "lesbian". I would assert then, that perhaps we should also toss out female, because it is offensive to me to be just a being that produces eggs.

ETA: I just saw that you had responded to my question. Thank you. I am growing weary of this conversation. It will just continue to go in circles. It is not binary.

citybutch · 08-31-2011, 08:58 PM

*sigh*... this is why I like conversations better face to face... We could have a lot of fun discussing this... I can see where my next response would be misinterpreted and so I will step aside.

Maybe someday we can have the conversation in person, Jess...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jess

While I totally understand your disdain for the origins of the word "woman", I still can not find the OED current definition of "woman", so I do not understand why it is so offensive today.

Much of the discord in this thread has been about the "traditional" definition of "lesbian". I would assert then, that perhaps we should also toss out female, because it is offensive to me to be just a being that produces eggs.

Jess · 08-31-2011, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citybutch

*sigh*... this is why I like conversations better face to face... We could have a lot of fun discussing this... I can see where my next response would be misinterpreted and so I will step aside.

Maybe someday we can have the conversation in person, Jess...

Always down for that! I agree, sometimes it is only through face to face that we can begin to lower our defenses enough to truly "hear" one another. Because, believe me, I am laughing at a lot of this.. LOL... Mostly, the faces I feel cross my face when I just go " huh?"

Thanks again!

Heart · 08-31-2011, 09:14 PM

Kobi, I think I'm pretty clear about what I stand for. I guess I just don't have a very either/or sensibility. It's more of a both/and sensibility. If that feels like flip flopping to you, so be it. I notice you didn't engage with any of my questions.

Jess, what I was trying to express was something that I was saying when SA was feeling that her identity as a lesbian was being challenged in this thread: That our individual twists and turns, (including who we are sleeping with at any given moment), tells us very little. This goes back to one of my original arguments (just to be consistent Kobi), about how circling around and around identity (labels, roles, who one sleeps with, etc), is politically unproductive. What concerns me are the broader issues of what happens to those of us that the patriarchal world sees as lesbians, and more broadly, as women.

I hope that's clearer.

ETA: Also, when I said this: I do not get why any of these labels based upon whom I'm sleeping with at any given moment, has any bearing upon my politics or my political activism," I was responding to what I felt was implied in Kobi's prior post, that if one has slept with men, one might be politically suspect. Of course, I am aware that this is a common perception in separatist communities, and actually I understand where it comes from -- the reality of patriarchy means women will be suspicious of other women who have consorted with men.

Heart

08-31-2011, 09:14 PM	#8
Heart Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Relationship Status: rainbows! Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: NY Posts: 466 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 303 Thanked 2,522 Times in 409 Posts Rep Power: 12032610	Kobi, I think I'm pretty clear about what I stand for. I guess I just don't have a very either/or sensibility. It's more of a both/and sensibility. If that feels like flip flopping to you, so be it. I notice you didn't engage with any of my questions. Jess, what I was trying to express was something that I was saying when SA was feeling that her identity as a lesbian was being challenged in this thread: That our individual twists and turns, (including who we are sleeping with at any given moment), tells us very little. This goes back to one of my original arguments (just to be consistent Kobi), about how circling around and around identity (labels, roles, who one sleeps with, etc), is politically unproductive. What concerns me are the broader issues of what happens to those of us that the patriarchal world sees as lesbians, and more broadly, as women. I hope that's clearer. ETA: Also, when I said this: I do not get why any of these labels based upon whom I'm sleeping with at any given moment, has any bearing upon my politics or my political activism," I was responding to what I felt was implied in Kobi's prior post, that if one has slept with men, one might be politically suspect. Of course, I am aware that this is a common perception in separatist communities, and actually I understand where it comes from -- the reality of patriarchy means women will be suspicious of other women who have consorted with men. Heart Last edited by Heart; 08-31-2011 at 09:28 PM.