Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Until recently I held male as problematic, masculinity as suspect. It’s impossible to ignore all the violence and horror that men all over the world perpetrate daily against women. I was unable to separate masculinity from male, male from men and men from patriarchy. I held my own masculinity suspect and found it hard to own it. Slowly, over time, I have been able to see things a bit differently

While feminism is certainly about women it is a movement to end sexism, sexual exploitation and oppression. I don’t think we can do this without men. Women have for years re-examined and redefined femininity and what it means to be female in this sexist society. I think men need to do this as well. Men need to be responsible for examining and redefining masculinity in a different way, separate from the patriarchal model. The patriarchy really isn’t good for anyone (except, of course, those with power and money). Men are fairly screwed with this masculine ideal thing as well. Society’s definition of masculinity is so limited and limiting.

I read somewhere about defining the version of male that is about having the right to be superior, to dominate women and any group deemed weaker as patriarchal masculinity. I think it is an important term for me to get in the habit of using. I think it is an act of feminism to work on separating maleness and masculinity from this patriarchal version. I think it is intelligently feminist to understand that we also need men and masculine people to challenge patriarchy

I totally get women’s space and I do prefer to devote my energy to women. I just think it is prudent to remember that in order to end sexism, exploitation and oppression, to defeat patriarchy we will need our brothers. I don’t think it is an achievable goal without men, male identified and masculine people on our side.

Probably this is nothing new to anyone, but it is actually revolutionary thought for me.

Feminism has always included men- it is defined as equality of both sexes. Yes, there exist feminist separatists (just as there are those that base the world's worth upon that which is male)- but they are not and never have been the bulk of the various feminist movements.

Many of us have and have raised male children and as parents realized that a sexist society is not good for either females or males- society at large. However, women have traditionally received the shit end of the stick. That does not mean, however, that men, male, masculine is viewed as negative. The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Feminism has always included men- it is defined as equality of both sexes. Yes, there exist feminist separatists (just as there are those that base the world's worth upon that which is male)- but they are not and never have been the bulk of the various feminist movements.

Many of us have and have raised male children and as parents realized that a sexist society is not good for either females or males- society at large. However, women have traditionally received the shit end of the stick. That does not mean, however, that men, male, masculine is viewed as negative. The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men.

First of all- Holy hell! So many labels! The politics of sex and gender have befuddled me since my teens.

I ID as GODDESS! Yep, thats right and it has nothing to do with my dissociation with patriarchy. I'm not any ONE thing but a clear evolution of many things. As I move through the universe I shift, change, explore and to be honest I wouldn't allow anything to influence my desires.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men.

This is totally correct in my world perception. I too have a son and males I love. I often feel a need to teach them to love. I actually know LOTS of male feminist who love, honor and adore women. IMO feminine energy is Divine. This does not mean male energy is disregarded but not primary. You can't compare matriarchy with patriarchy. They each act differently or at less in my matriarchal world.

I find it hard to call myself a lesbian. I find it hard to call myself anything, however I do love and honor feminine energy wherever it is present.

[TruTexan]

I just wanted to say I"m a PROUD LESBIAN AND I"M A BUTCH and I love lesbian Feminine women.
All the terminology for the diff. genders , ID"s, etc are making my head spin.
I've been out a very long time, and only online have I ever truly encountered so many diff. ID"S and I still can't keep up with what means what here. I'm also confused as to the difference of for example what the difference between woman ID"d and female ID"d are. Maybe someone can explain a lot of this to me and help me get them stuck in my head, as for now, My Head is SPINNNING!
Thanks Kobi for starting threads like these. But I just don't care for the going back and forth in them, and the derails. I don't get that at all. This is our community so why all the arguing going on in threads? I mean, not just this one, but a lot of them it seems to happen in. makes my head spin.

And also, does anyone know if we have a lesbian thread for lesbian sex or a thread for lesbian butches and the lesbian femmes that love them? Not sure how to find it. Thanks.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by TruTexan

I just wanted to say I"m a PROUD LESBIAN AND I"M A BUTCH and I love lesbian Feminine women.
All the terminology for the diff. genders , ID"s, etc are making my head spin.
I've been out a very long time, and only online have I ever truly encountered so many diff. ID"S and I still can't keep up with what means what here. I'm also confused as to the difference of for example what the difference between woman ID"d and female ID"d are. Maybe someone can explain a lot of this to me and help me get them stuck in my head, as for now, My Head is SPINNNING!
Thanks Kobi for starting threads like these. But I just don't care for the going back and forth in them, and the derails. I don't get that at all. This is our community so why all the arguing going on in threads? I mean, not just this one, but a lot of them it seems to happen in. makes my head spin.

And also, does anyone know if we have a lesbian thread for lesbian sex or a thread for lesbian butches and the lesbian femmes that love them? Not sure how to find it. Thanks.

Hi Tru Texan. I am also a proud lesbian and a butch, as well as a feminist.

Hopefully the debating and the heated discussing helps us to understand each other better. People see things differently. And that's hard to come to terms with. Especially when most of us are so sure that the way we see it is the way it is. It's tricky to make room for beliefs that are so contrary to one's own. I think venues such as this makes that happen for many of us over time. Maybe not for every issue every time, but enough that it makes the debate worth the effort.

Some people ID as female but not as a woman. Their sex is female but their gender is not woman.

Hopefully this helps.

[TruTexan]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Hi Tru Texan. I am also a proud lesbian and a butch, as well as a feminist.

Hopefully the debating and the heated discussing helps us to understand each other better. People see things differently. And that's hard to come to terms with. Especially when most of us are so sure that the way we see it is the way it is. It's tricky to make room for beliefs that are so contrary to one's own. I think venues such as this makes that happen for many of us over time. Maybe not for every issue every time, but enough that it makes the debate worth the effort.

Some people ID as female but not as a woman. Their sex is female but their gender is not woman.

Hopefully this helps.

Uhm, that just confused me even more?!??
Can you give me an example of a person in general, so I can fully grasp this concept?
I don't get it, I mean how can you ID as female but not as woman?
If I say I am female ID"d butch on this site, what exactly does that mean now that I am totally confused. Does that mean to another person reading my ID here that I don't equate my female to mean I am woman?
HELP???? And thank you Miss Tick for answering and trying to help me understand atleast this one particular IDying.

[Allison W]

Originally Posted by TruTexan

Uhm, that just confused me even more?!??
Can you give me an example of a person in general, so I can fully grasp this concept?
I don't get it, I mean how can you ID as female but not as woman?
If I say I am female ID"d butch on this site, what exactly does that mean now that I am totally confused. Does that mean to another person reading my ID here that I don't equate my female to mean I am woman?
HELP???? And thank you Miss Tick for answering and trying to help me understand atleast this one particular IDying.

It probably involves interpreting "female" as a word referring to biological sex and "woman" as a word referring to gender. I've seen that before.

[BullDog]

Female usually refers to biological sex and woman refers to gender. However, a lot of people on this site use female to refer to gender as well as biological sex, mostly because some butches consider themselves to be female but not a woman.

I personally don't use the term female-identified to describe myself, but it is frequently used here. However, when someone says they are female-identified, it doesn't necessary mean they don't consider themselves to be a woman. Some do, some don't. Sorry I can't make this any clearer because it isn't clear cut. It varies from person to person.

[TruTexan]

Originally Posted by Allison W

It probably involves interpreting "female" as a word referring to biological sex and "woman" as a word referring to gender. I've seen that before.

Yes and yes. Thanks for your post. I pm'd Dapper and got some more things cleared up as well. I appreciate you all's help in my understanding. I have no issues with how anyone sees themselves, just wanna make sure I "get it". So thank you.