Breaking the Spell: Rethinking queer community

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

Is anyone else reading the Gatekeeping thread over in the Red Zone and finding themselves thinking of this thread? I am, and I keep seeing the same thing. Near-perfect illustrations of what's been discussed in this thread. Specifically, the bit where some people in the community seem to think that they can win arguments by setting themselves up as the most oppressed and most victimized and their opponents as the oppressor and victimizer. Is it just me seeing that?

Funny you should post that because I was just reading that thread and thought that I wanted to ask a question here!

I am having a very difficult time with the idea that women ranking women and lesbians ranking lesbians is a way to deal with the patriarchy. That seems to me to be the opposite of what we should do. That might be what feels right or is healing in some way to those who fit that group but how does the dislocation of those who don't fit fight the patriarchy? It seems more a want than a need.

These kinds of arguments seem to happen in all segments of the LGBT communities. Female identified butches vs. male identified butches. Transmen vs. butches. Transsexual vs. transgender. If you swap out the words it is essentially the same argument. You don't fit in here. My needs are different than yours (maybe even more pressing, important). Your presence silences me. I am not being heard.

Is there anyone here that thinks that we might be better served if all women decide to be one another's ally no matter where we fit on the list of identities? Isn't that the true aim of feminism? If we could do that and focus our energy on dismantiling the patriarchy would that be more successful?

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Funny you should post that because I was just reading that thread and thought that I wanted to ask a question here!

I am having a very difficult time with the idea that women ranking women and lesbians ranking lesbians is a way to deal with the patriarchy. That seems to me to be the opposite of what we should do. That might be what feels right or is healing in some way to those who fit that group but how does the dislocation of those who don't fit fight the patriarchy? It seems more a want than a need.

These kinds of arguments seem to happen in all segments of the LGBT communities. Female identified butches vs. male identified butches. Transmen vs. butches. Transsexual vs. transgender. If you swap out the words it is essentially the same argument. You don't fit in here. My needs are different than yours (maybe even more pressing, important). Your presence silences me. I am not being heard.

Is there anyone here that thinks that we might be better served if all women decide to be one another's ally no matter where we fit on the list of identities? Isn't that the true aim of feminism? If we could do that and focus our energy on dismantiling the patriarchy would that be more successful?

I completely agree with you, up to a point. I'm all for all women being allies of all other women, *provided that none of those women are actively working against feminist ideals*. I'd love to claim to be an ally to all women, except I can't get behind women like Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann. In much the same way that I consider myself an ally of all queer people, except the ones who won't claim their queerness and instead work against us (I'm thinking mainly of conservative, closeted politicians here) while having illicit liasons in airport bathrooms. I think it's a mistake to think we should be someone's ally just because we share a single trait. There are a lot of women in world who hate everyone on this board, everyone in the queer community, everyone who doesn't share their religious beliefs, etc, and I can't ally myself with those people.

People with whom I share multiple traits, on the other hand, I'm thrilled to be allied with. Women who are also queer, and also feminists? Hugs all around! Right up to the point where someone within that group tries to shove someone else out of it.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

I completely agree with you, up to a point. I'm all for all women being allies of all other women, *provided that none of those women are actively working against feminist ideals*. I'd love to claim to be an ally to all women, except I can't get behind women like Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann. In much the same way that I consider myself an ally of all queer people, except the ones who won't claim their queerness and instead work against us (I'm thinking mainly of conservative, closeted politicians here) while having illicit liasons in airport bathrooms. I think it's a mistake to think we should be someone's ally just because we share a single trait. There are a lot of women in world who hate everyone on this board, everyone in the queer community, everyone who doesn't share their religious beliefs, etc, and I can't ally myself with those people.

People with whom I share multiple traits, on the other hand, I'm thrilled to be allied with. Women who are also queer, and also feminists? Hugs all around! Right up to the point where someone within that group tries to shove someone else out of it.

You know I was not even thinking of straight women when I said that. That's a problem! I guess I was thinking more about our community and the divisions we have been talking about.

This brings up a big moral dilemma that the Jewish community has been grappling with. Glenn Beck has pledged his allegiance to Israel and had a rally there and everything. Lots of Jews supported him. WHAT??? This was pretty shocking to me. On a FB page people were defending him and then one man posted his horribly homophobic rap sheet. You know what one guy said? He'd rather side with Glenn Beck than someone who wanted him dead. Nevermind that Glenn Beck is also racist and his interest in Israel is based soley on the end of days. I'm using this example because you bring up a very good point. What if Sarah Palin wanted to ally with us? She clearly stated she was in line with our goals and was on board for the fight. What about all the other really horrible politics she espouses? What about her agenda for supporting us?

Thanks for bringing that up.