Breaking the Spell: Rethinking queer community

[betenoire]

Someone I love lots once said (to paraphrase) "What is with all this garbage about being nonjudgmental? You can't even have an opinion if you're not willing to judge. You can't even -think- without judging."

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Someone I love lots once said (to paraphrase) "What is with all this garbage about being nonjudgmental? You can't even have an opinion if you're not willing to judge. You can't even -think- without judging."

Well I think the way the word "judgmental" is often used is meant: to judge someone unfairly, i.e., on some bogus basis such as race, religion, gender, etc. That is a different sense than "judging" simply as a form of evaluation without prejudice.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Well I think the way the word "judgmental" is often used is meant: to judge someone unfairly, i.e., on some bogus basis such as race, religion, gender, etc. That is a different sense than "judging" simply as a form of evaluation without prejudice.

Sure, but I can assure you that my friend (and ditto me, for that matter) wasn't defending her right to think bad things about group x for simply being group x.

We're talking about if someone does something really fucked up, or believes something that is totally irrational, behaves in a way that is indefensible, etc. All this hippie woo woo candlelighting about "you just do you! you are brave for admitting to kicking puppies/thinking that the ghost of Joan of Ark lives under your bed and offers you protection/having 3 different sexual partners all of whom think that you are monogamous with them/etc! no judgment here! in fact now I am going to carry on like I think more highly of you than I think of people who do not openly kick puppies etc!"

Problems with that:

1 - It's pretty much a queer phenomenon. We are so caught up with wanting to be a "community" that we posture all this unconditional love at each other, much of which I presume isn't geniune. Chances are pretty good that Claudia thinks Charlane is batshit for kicking puppies while making small talk with Joan of Ark - but Claudia would never dare say that because often being honest is tabu in Queer circles.

2 - We also only reserve the hippie woowoo candlelight stuff for one another. If George (who is Claudia's straight, white, and male neighbor) kicked puppies while making small-talk with Joan of Ark - Claudia would very likely petition her neighbors to have George bullied off of the block.

[dreadgeek]

Yes, this is precisely what I'm talking about and what I think that we, as a community, need to face head on. Truth be told, as a community we are not nearly as nonjudgmental as we would like to think we are. How can I be so certain of this? Because I can read and parse what people are saying. For example, when we talk about being nonjudgmental we are--wait for it--making a judgment. Whether people realize it or not, they are setting up a hierarchy of virtues and putting being nonjudgmental at the apex of it. While this may be emotionally satisfying it is not, in point of fact, being nonjudgmental. Let someone say something genuinely judgmental and people will come out of the woodwork to point out how nonjudgmental they are and how wonderful it is to be nonjudgmental.

Much the same can be said about the idea of being openminded. I would go so far as to say we have gone all the way down the rabbit hole with being openminded such that what is actually keeping an open mind is considered closed minded. For example, if I were to jump up and say that my dead mother and father lived on beyond the grave and talked to me on a daily basis and that I knew this to be true and nothing anyone said could ever possibly disabuse me of that notion, I would be considered to be one of the most open minded people on this board. If, on the other hand, I were to state that I do not believe people live on after their death because I see no evidence that such a thing happened I would be considered horribly closed minded. Now, to my mind being willing to change one's mind upon presentation with better evidence is the sine qua non of open mindedness even if one has a high standard for what constitutes evidence. Being unwilling to change one's mind no matter the evidence, regardless of how high or low the bar is set, seems to me to be the very essence of a closed mind. However, that is not how we use those terms in everyday life in this community.

In this construction open-minded means believing that Joan of Arc speaks to people from beyond the grave on no better strength than someone *said* that it happens. Being closed minded means wanting evidence for any belief X where X is some phenomena that would effect all people. (In other words, I don't need to prove that my wife loves *you* in order to believe that she loves me. I do need to be prepared to demonstrate that if my parents are capable of speaking to me from beyond the grave that your parents are as well or I had better have a damn good explanation for why I am so particularly blessed to be able to speak to my folks long after they have died.)

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by betenoire

Sure, but I can assure you that my friend (and ditto me, for that matter) wasn't defending her right to think bad things about group x for simply being group x.

We're talking about if someone does something really fucked up, or believes something that is totally irrational, behaves in a way that is indefensible, etc. All this hippie woo woo candlelighting about "you just do you! you are brave for admitting to kicking puppies/thinking that the ghost of Joan of Ark lives under your bed and offers you protection/having 3 different sexual partners all of whom think that you are monogamous with them/etc! no judgment here! in fact now I am going to carry on like I think more highly of you than I think of people who do not openly kick puppies etc!"

Problems with that:

1 - It's pretty much a queer phenomenon. We are so caught up with wanting to be a "community" that we posture all this unconditional love at each other, much of which I presume isn't geniune. Chances are pretty good that Claudia thinks Charlane is batshit for kicking puppies while making small talk with Joan of Ark - but Claudia would never dare say that because often being honest is tabu in Queer circles.

2 - We also only reserve the hippie woowoo candlelight stuff for one another. If George (who is Claudia's straight, white, and male neighbor) kicked puppies while making small-talk with Joan of Ark - Claudia would very likely petition her neighbors to have George bullied off of the block.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Much the same can be said about the idea of being openminded. I would go so far as to say we have gone all the way down the rabbit hole with being openminded such that what is actually keeping an open mind is considered closed minded. For example, if I were to jump up and say that my dead mother and father lived on beyond the grave and talked to me on a daily basis and that I knew this to be true and nothing anyone said could ever possibly disabuse me of that notion, I would be considered to be one of the most open minded people on this board. If, on the other hand, I were to state that I do not believe people live on after their death because I see no evidence that such a thing happened I would be considered horribly closed minded. Now, to my mind being willing to change one's mind upon presentation with better evidence is the sine qua non of open mindedness even if one has a high standard for what constitutes evidence. Being unwilling to change one's mind no matter the evidence, regardless of how high or low the bar is set, seems to me to be the very essence of a closed mind. However, that is not how we use those terms in everyday life in this community.

In this construction open-minded means believing that Joan of Arc speaks to people from beyond the grave on no better strength than someone *said* that it happens. Being closed minded means wanting evidence for any belief X where X is some phenomena that would effect all people. (In other words, I don't need to prove that my wife loves *you* in order to believe that she loves me. I do need to be prepared to demonstrate that if my parents are capable of speaking to me from beyond the grave that your parents are as well or I had better have a damn good explanation for why I am so particularly blessed to be able to speak to my folks long after they have died.)

Cheers
Aj

This is so on the money that I just had to quote it. I mean talk about things being totally backward. Being closed minded not only means wanting evidence for any belief x where x is some phenomena that would effect all people, it is also apparently close minded when you have the audacity and insensitivity to point out fairly indisputable evidence that would or at least should disprove certain odd ideas that so many seem to take as reality. This particular line of thought reminds me of something I once read online entitled "Why Does God Hate Amputees?" Now that was pretty amusing.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Sure, but I can assure you that my friend (and ditto me, for that matter) wasn't defending her right to think bad things about group x for simply being group x.

We're talking about if someone does something really fucked up, or believes something that is totally irrational, behaves in a way that is indefensible, etc. All this hippie woo woo candlelighting about "you just do you! you are brave for admitting to kicking puppies/thinking that the ghost of Joan of Ark lives under your bed and offers you protection/having 3 different sexual partners all of whom think that you are monogamous with them/etc! no judgment here! in fact now I am going to carry on like I think more highly of you than I think of people who do not openly kick puppies etc!"

Problems with that:

1 - It's pretty much a queer phenomenon. We are so caught up with wanting to be a "community" that we posture all this unconditional love at each other, much of which I presume isn't geniune. Chances are pretty good that Claudia thinks Charlane is batshit for kicking puppies while making small talk with Joan of Ark - but Claudia would never dare say that because often being honest is tabu in Queer circles.

2 - We also only reserve the hippie woowoo candlelight stuff for one another. If George (who is Claudia's straight, white, and male neighbor) kicked puppies while making small-talk with Joan of Ark - Claudia would very likely petition her neighbors to have George bullied off of the block.

Haha, I wasn't saying I disagreed. In fact I totally agree with you on all of what you just said. I believe that there are universal rights and wrongs. I am not a moral relativist at all.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Truth be told, as a community we are not nearly as nonjudgmental as we would like to think we are. How can I be so certain of this? Because I can read and parse what people are saying. For example, when we talk about being nonjudgmental we are--wait for it--making a judgment. Whether people realize it or not, they are setting up a hierarchy of virtues and putting being nonjudgmental at the apex of it. While this may be emotionally satisfying it is not, in point of fact, being nonjudgmental.

Bazinga! (I know that I misuse that word, but I don't care.)

Much the same can be said about the idea of being openminded. I would go so far as to say we have gone all the way down the rabbit hole with being openminded such that what is actually keeping an open mind is considered closed minded.

Right, it's as though having critical thinking skills and a grasp of how the universe actually functions (socially, scientifically, economically) is frowned upon.

I'm really not sure where all of this started. Any idea what can be pinpointed as the movement or event where we all started to lose our marbles a little? I'm pretty young still (34) so I have no framework for if it's always been like this. Were we able to have opinions without being demonised 20 years ago? Did we hold ourselves up to the same standards that we hold people outside of our community up to 50 years ago? Have we -always- been this way?

And now. I have to go to work.

[Ranger Butch Force]

We pass judgement every day of our lives, wether we do it conciously or not.

[Slater]

Originally Posted by Ranger Butch Force

We pass judgement every day of our lives, wether we do it conciously or not.

Ah true, but the trick is be conscious and mindful and deliberate with our judgements, especially the ones we are going to act upon in some way. A fleeting and random judge-y thought does not always have to be unpacked and examined -- as long as it genuinely is fleeting and random.

For instance, I could think of someone walking down the street, "Holy hell, those are the most ridiculous shoes I've ever seen. Who wears those?" Now I probably wouldn't think that because I scarcely pay attention to what's on my own feet let alone anyone else's (with the notable exception of certain appealing femme footwear selections), but even if I did that's probably a benign, fleeting judgement that I don't need to bother myself with. But if the footwear is markedly favored by a particular demographic group then maybe I do need to examine where that judgement is coming from and what other baggage might be traveling along with it.

So I don't think the goal is to not have any judgements so much as to be careful and responsible and limited with them.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Someone I love lots once said (to paraphrase) "What is with all this garbage about being nonjudgmental? You can't even have an opinion if you're not willing to judge. You can't even -think- without judging."

Then again one could be too judgmental to even make a good judge...

Jett
(formerly Metropolis)

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Jett

Then again one could be too judgmental to even make a good judge...

Jett
(formerly Metropolis)

Have you got an example of that?

[Jett]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Have you got an example of that?

I can make one up... but I'll just say I've always taken the word judgmental to describe someone who is overly judgy... or critical- especially in moral, ethical or personal areas of others lives.

Other than that I wholeheartedly agree with you, we have to make judgements all the time, and we have to somewhat judge others to relate them to our own moral/ethical/social/etc. compass... but some people are much more "judgmental" than others... often very much to a fault.

That's all I got...

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Jett

I can make one up... but I'll just say I've always taken the word judgmental to describe someone who is overly judgy... or critical- especially in moral, ethical or personal areas of others lives.

I'm just not sure that's what everybody means when they say the word judgmental. OR if they DO mean -overly- judgy...as a community Queers have a really skewed idea of what, exactly, overly judgy is. That becomes apparent when someone can't even say (and I'm gonna go ahead and give a real example) "cheating is selfish" without someone going "you are judgmental!".

nb - when I say "as a community" I do not mean every single Queer, clearly. Because I am Queer and I don't have that particular problem. But there is no denying that that -is- the prevailing party line.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I'm just not sure that's what everybody means when they say the word judgmental. OR if they DO mean -overly- judgy...as a community Queers have a really skewed idea of what, exactly, overly judgy is. That becomes apparent when someone can't even say (and I'm gonna go ahead and give a real example) "cheating is selfish" without someone going "you are judgmental!".

nb - when I say "as a community" I do not mean every single Queer, clearly. Because I am Queer and I don't have that particular problem. But there is no denying that that -is- the prevailing party line.

Agreed... I think we sometimes feel like we are above reproach... because hey, we're queer and take enough shit so we should be able to dish a little, to me that's bullshit. And we let ism's fly...

I have referenced this over the years with the old saying... the abused becoming the abuser... it's pretty sad.

ETA: Hope I'm getting you right, been fighting a migraine for like forever now and it skews my focus a bit sometimes me thinks :/

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Jett

Agreed... I think we sometimes feel like we are above reproach... because hey, we're queer and take enough shit so we should be able to dish a little, to me that's bullshit. And we let ism's fly...

I have referenced this over the years with the old saying... the abused becoming the abuser... it's pretty sad.

ETA: Hope I'm getting you right, been fighting a migraine for like forever now and it skews my focus a bit sometimes me thinks :/

You're getting me a bit. Although I do see less of what you're talking about.

I think the part about "we're queer and we take enough shit" is accurate, though. That's pretty obviously the mindset. Like "straight people shit on us all the time, so we had better not shit on each other!"

Except that "straight people" are shitting on you for what you are, and I (for example) am not "shitting on" anybody for what they are - but that doesn't render me incapable of seeing assholey behaviour for what it is.