Breaking the Spell: Rethinking queer community

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Ranger Butch Force

But why would they say that in the first place? At that point, to me from my me space, I would think that either A) they don't know you very well, B) they may, in their mind, think that it's ok to ask such a question to you for whatever reason or C) they are narrow minded in thinking that only white people can be smart, educated, and articulate which is obviously not true given that the US president is not white.

I have a question. And I am not trying to be an ass, I just really am bothered by this. Do you not see how the part I bolded in your post might be problematic? I guess I am not sure that that line of argument is the right one to be made against the racist and completely untrue notion that "only white people can be smart, educated, and articulate."

I mean, I can just see if one were to make that kind of argument with a right wing racist tea partier, that said person would just say, "well Obama's an idiot so that proves nothing."

The truth is that there are intelligent and articulate people of every race, and there are some really stupid people of every race. Pointing to one particular person to make that point isn't a good way to do so.

Annnnd, given Aj's examples, it seems that the person saying:

"You are really smart for a black woman."
"Were you raised by a white family? I mean, you're so smart, educated and articulate."

would be acknowledging, in a very icky way, that she is smart, however the implication is that, on the whole, black people aren't smart. So pointing to the president wouldn't really dispute that claim. I guess after all this rambling that is really my point. lol

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I have a question. And I am not trying to be an ass, I just really am bothered by this. Do you not see how the part I bolded in your post might be problematic? I guess I am not sure that that line of argument is the right one to be made against the racist and completely untrue notion that "only white people can be smart, educated, and articulate."

I mean, I can just see if one were to make that kind of argument with a right wing racist tea partier, that said person would just say, "well Obama's an idiot so that proves nothing."

The truth is that there are intelligent and articulate people of every race, and there are some really stupid people of every race. Pointing to one particular person to make that point isn't a good way to do so.

Annnnd, given Aj's examples, it seems that the person saying:

"You are really smart for a black woman."
"Were you raised by a white family? I mean, you're so smart, educated and articulate."

would be acknowledging, in a very icky way, that she is smart, however the implication is that, on the whole, black people aren't smart. So pointing to the president wouldn't really dispute that claim. I guess after all this rambling that is really my point. lol

Exactly.

and

a side note:

You don't have to be any of those things to be President (George W., anyone?)

[Cin]

The term morality always made me a little uncomfortable. I believe my problem was that I always equated morality with judgment.

I remember reading the short story “The Monkey’s Paw” in class when I was a kid. I’m most likely suspicious by nature but that story didn’t help...sneaky, tricky, stuff in that story. It showed me how a thing that seems like something good can turn out to be really bad. Sometimes what you think you want will hurt you. Anyway right around that same time I was learning about the 8 beatitudes in catechism. They scared the crap out of me. I didn’t find the promises in them all that comforting. They seemed like traps. Like the Monkey’s Paw was a trap. I read evil intent by a god that confused and frightened me deeply in the words “Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice for they shall have their fill.” I decided right then that I did not want my fill of justice, nope, not hungry for it, not thirsty for it, nope. I figured maybe I’d hang my hat on mercy. Sounded like a better prize in the end anyway.

As an adult I still had problems conflating morality and judgment. I won’t bore you here with my process. Suffice to say that I have come to believe adopting a moral point of view is essential. I don’t have to judge people to do that. I do judge their actions when their actions affect others. For me that is the measure. When someone’s actions are going to have consequences for others then they must consider that and take responsibility for making ethical decisions based on this knowledge. But if they don’t make the just and moral decision then it is my right to call them on it. It often doesn’t take a lot of thought to figure out what decision is the just and moral one. Not everything, actually hardly anything, is a moral dilemma. To be right thinking one just needs to make choices with the measuring stick of equity for all human beings in mind. Perhaps even all sentient beings.

History shows that a significant number of humans do not believe human beings have the inclination to be moral. They do not believe human beings are likely to make moral decisions based on the reality that to do so would improve the quality of life in a society. Many believe people will put their needs above the needs of others and do what was best for themselves, regardless of the result for others or for all humankind. I guess this is where religion came into play as well as other social institutions to help us find other reasons besides justice, understanding and empathy for making moral choices.

I do think human beings have the capacity to make the right moral decisions simply because they are the right ones for everyone concerned and not because god is watching us or because we will go to jail if we don’t. Our big brains evolved for adaptation but we got some extra stuff too. Being able to understand and anticipate the consequences of our actions, being able to make value judgments, as well as possessing the ability to choose between alternative courses of action means to me that we can make the correct moral decisions. We can choose between what is best for the individual and what is best for the whole. We can conclude that what is best for our society is ultimately what is best for the individual. However, as Dreadgeek pointed out so well, people often lack the information or refuse the information required to make the right choice. Many lack the ability or desire for critical thinking. As a society we are not only intellectually lazy, we are morally lethargic.

I just think the litmus test for moral behavior is whether or not it is fair and whether or not you would be comfortable if everyone chose that particular behavior. There should be equity for all involved in any action or decision. Equity and justice need to be the prime motivators in concluding what choice is the moral one.

[Cin]

Just to be clear when I say equity as a measuring stick, I don’t mean equality. Equality usually means the state of being equal. What I mean when I say equity is the quality of being fair and impartial. Perhaps I should say impartiality.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by June

People have actually said "I can't disagree with June or I will be banned" and "I can't say what I want because I will get in trouble". This is complete bullshit. I don't even agree with people who have eaten at my table all the time. I think we can all tell when someone is engaging in a heated way over a difference of opinion and someone who is just being nasty because they didn't get enough attention from their parents. I can't use the ignore feature here, but I do choose (eventually) not to engage with people that I consider untrustworthy or mean spirited because of their consistent behavior patterns.

This reminded me of the years I spent in HR. I spent a few years working for a temporary staffing agency, and a couple of years in the HR office of a huge, well-known company (whose name starts with a Q and ends with a direction). Every time there was a hiring event with lots of applicants and not enough positions for all of them, I was pretty well guaranteed to spend a few days taking calls from people who didn't get hired and wanted to yell at me about how they *knew* they hadn't been hired because "their" job was given to some less qualified woman or minority to satisfy an affirmative action quota.

That's not actually how affirmative action works, and such a thing never happened even once (and I'm in a position to know since I'm the one who was doing the interviewing and hiring), but that didn't matter even a little bit. What mattered is that they wanted it to not be their fault that they didn't get the job, and they wanted to feel like they were a victim instead of just someone who didn't make the cut. Quite often, the people making these calls were the same people I remembered vividly because of how they'd behaved during their interviews. They'd ensured in their first five minutes in my office that there was no way I was going to hire them for anything. The people I had the greatest reason for passing over were the people who yelled the loudest about how they were being screwed over by someone else.

Okay, that was a tangent. I think I've had that rant simmering for years. I think the same principle applies here, though. Some people really, really want to believe that if something doesn't go their way, it's not because they did anything wrong. They can't be wrong. It has to be that someone is out to get them.

Please be assured that when I disappear from your friends list in a couple of days, it's not because I got moderated (not that I have been). I'm just deleting my Facebook account in a couple of days in favor of Google+.

[atomiczombie]

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Wow. You win.

[Ranger Butch Force]

I thought I could do this from my phone but it is more difficult than I imagined! So, when Im able to get back on the computer and read through everything without having to pinch, zoom, double tap and so on, I will voice my opinions.

BTW, I love science as Dr. Megavolt is one of my heroes!

[betenoire]

Google+ for the win. Just saying.