Safety in a Failing Economy

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

I appreciate the honesty of this, Miss Tick. Einstein said, “I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.” That's what matters. Stay curious and interested. Everyone starts at a beginning.

I'd like to see a future Planetary gathering to be an offering of homesteading, off-the-grid, permaculture and survival classes. Hint, hint Sachita

Hell yes! Let's all gather at Sachita's and share skills and slow food! Let's do it!

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Hell yes! Let's all gather at Sachita's and share skills and slow food! Let's do it!

Mi casa yo casa- have at it. I have 25 acres back there, 30 total, nice creek, greenhouse, all waiting to be used.

what is slow food? lol is that a typo?

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by Sachita

Mi casa yo casa- have at it. I have 25 acres back there, 30 total, nice creek, greenhouse, all waiting to be used.

what is slow food? lol is that a typo?

Found this online:
"What is Slow Food?
Slow Food is an idea, a way of living and a way of eating. It is a global, grassroots movement with thousands of members around the world that links the pleasure of food with a commitment to community and the environment."

But mostly my friends use "slow food" as a way to describe the pleasure- and THE WORK - of food that they grew themselves, foraged for, traded for, made for themselves by canning or pickling.... Etc.
We use that term as a way to express the commitment to ourselves that we don't find virtue (or good flavors) in "buying" food in 21st-century-US-supermarket-ways.

Sounds stuffy to describe, but it's fun, interesting and home-brewed beer makes the girls go crazy!

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Found this online:
"What is Slow Food?
Slow Food is an idea, a way of living and a way of eating. It is a global, grassroots movement with thousands of members around the world that links the pleasure of food with a commitment to community and the environment."

But mostly my friends use "slow food" as a way to describe the pleasure- and THE WORK - of food that they grew themselves, foraged for, traded for, made for themselves by canning or pickling.... Etc.
We use that term as a way to express the commitment to ourselves that we don't find virtue (or good flavors) in "buying" food in 21st-century-US-supermarket-ways.

Sounds stuffy to describe, but it's fun, interesting and home-brewed beer makes the girls go crazy!

I love it!

[atomiczombie]

What I keep thinking about as I read this thread is that most poor people simply can't do this kind of stuff. They have no land where they can grow food. They have no money to buy disaster supplies. They get by on so little that keeping a roof over their heads and food in their mouths is hard enough, let alone investing time and money into gardening and solar power, etc. I like the idea of community gardens, but they aren't enough to keep people regularly fed.

In disasters, it's always the poorest of the poor (and disproportionately, those people are POC) who get hit the hardest. I am thinking of Katrina here as an example. They couldn't prepare and get out because they had no cars/gas money, etc to get out before the hurricane hit. People who are poor and live in urban areas would have the hardest time pulling off sustainable living. It's sad but true.

[Sachita]

what can't poor people do?

when faced with a economic challenge and unable to import food, Havana, Cuba ( a poor country) did this:




There are plenty of farms outside NYC cheap and or offering ANYONE a chance to farm free, live and work, partner. Maybe its true that they don't have knowledge of all the resources but they are most certainly there.

I don't think I even want to depend on solar. I like the idea of it now because I'm conditioned to use power, however if shit really hot the fan or the cost of EVERYTHING went up, can you afford the parts to upkeep solar?

I know a couple living in Maine who go to bed when it gets dark. They heat and cook with wood. They use some gas to power their boat to fish. They collect lots of things to eat in the water and woods, preserve it and when they can they grow and can. They can't afford too much else. They are happy and doing what they love. They don't have to worry about losing a job, right? lol

[SoNotHer]

Good reference. Cuba is the post Peak Oil model, and if anyone hasn't seen the documentary "The Power of Community," you should. It's inspiring.

Originally Posted by Sachita

what can't poor people do?

when faced with a economic challenge and unable to import food, Havana, Cuba ( a poor country) did this:




There are plenty of farms outside NYC cheap and or offering ANYONE a chance to farm free, live and work, partner. Maybe its true that they don't have knowledge of all the resources but they are most certainly there.

I don't think I even want to depend on solar. I like the idea of it now because I'm conditioned to use power, however if shit really hot the fan or the cost of EVERYTHING went up, can you afford the parts to upkeep solar?

I know a couple living in Maine who go to bed when it gets dark. They heat and cook with wood. They use some gas to power their boat to fish. They collect lots of things to eat in the water and woods, preserve it and when they can they grow and can. They can't afford too much else. They are happy and doing what they love. They don't have to worry about losing a job, right? lol

[Rockinonahigh]

My uncle told me once that no matter who or where u wre if u get with like mindes people chances of servival are better,u may not think u have anything to offer in skills but u will be surprised at the things u will be able to do.Just use this as a pretend..im choping wood others can be stacking it by sise or help in cooking,cleaning or jusy giveing moral support besides as the group progresses new skill can be learned by those who want to do do,asfar as im conserned "cant" dose not exist.

[Blade]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

What I keep thinking about as I read this thread is that most poor people simply can't do this kind of stuff. They have no land where they can grow food. They have no money to buy disaster supplies. They get by on so little that keeping a roof over their heads and food in their mouths is hard enough, let alone investing time and money into gardening and solar power, etc. I like the idea of community gardens, but they aren't enough to keep people regularly fed.

In disasters, it's always the poorest of the poor (and disproportionately, those people are POC) who get hit the hardest. I am thinking of Katrina here as an example. They couldn't prepare and get out because they had no cars/gas money, etc to get out before the hurricane hit. People who are poor and live in urban areas would have the hardest time pulling off sustainable living. It's sad but true.

My grandparents were poor but they was proud folk. This is where folks learn to take care of one another. One hand washes the other. People will share their seed with one another, they would share their canned or dried or cured meat with one another. You can only eat so much so fast and you don't want it to go bad before it's eaten. It doesn't take a lot of land to have a garden. You can use boxes, hay bales, drink crates, buckets anything you can throw some dirt in. I think one of the things people don't realize is how much waste there is in gardening, now during modern times. You plant it, it grows, you give some away, eat some can or freeze some and you are tired of fooling with it and you let it grow up. Back in the day you didn't do that. You ate from the garden until the frost got it and if you were smart you covered the delicate things and got up just before the sun and turned the water on the garden to get the frost off the plants. Best thing to do is plant a fall garden in the shade and it will make it threw several frosty days, and the very best thing to do is only plant the hardy green stuff in the fall. But again as for land you don't have to have a bunch of land to make a garden. My Dad plants his around the eaves of his house. And there are many things you can put in rows together if you do have a tiny plot of land to work with, example plant corn and when it comes up plant green beans in the corn, the beans will crawl the corn, you have 2 crops in one row.

Sachita I haven't noticed or seen you say that you are but I hope you are saving and turning and drying that chicken poop and tilling it in with your garden or whatever soil you are using. It's to stout to put straight on your garden ya have to let it dry out. Alpaca poop is the best thing in the world for organic gardening and you can put it straight on the garden.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

What I keep thinking about as I read this thread is that most poor people simply can't do this kind of stuff. They have no land where they can grow food. They have no money to buy disaster supplies. They get by on so little that keeping a roof over their heads and food in their mouths is hard enough, let alone investing time and money into gardening and solar power, etc. I like the idea of community gardens, but they aren't enough to keep people regularly fed.

In disasters, it's always the poorest of the poor (and disproportionately, those people are POC) who get hit the hardest. I am thinking of Katrina here as an example. They couldn't prepare and get out because they had no cars/gas money, etc to get out before the hurricane hit. People who are poor and live in urban areas would have the hardest time pulling off sustainable living. It's sad but true.

Hi-
I do not mean to pick on your post. You just expressed what a lot of people think, because of a system that has an absolute interest in keeping people "victims".
The point is: There is no alternative. The way capitalism destroys earth, and everything on it can't continue. Having an opinion that "poor people can't live sustainable lives" not only takes away their agency and shows a lack of confidence in their resiliency and ingenuity, but it diverts attention away from the institutional systems in place that inhibit them (and or legally forbid) them from acting in their own best interest. Health department red tape about selling/trading food you've grown, anyone?

It's clear that poor people get hit hardest by everything, including situations like the levees failing in the poor neighborhoods of New Orleans. (I refuse to call it "katrina"- it was corps-of-engineered racism.) but it's also clear that there are millions (billions?) more poor people than rich people, so they must be smart enough to figure out survival techniques, no?

What I, as a white US citizen see my role as is this:
Consume less. Grow more, eat what I grow and help others do the same.
Support anti-oppression organizing at local, national and international levels.
Expose and dismantle systems that keep peolple from using their local resources in their own interests.
Use the information and resources so richly available to me as a US citizen to figure out ways to heal the earth, try to make sure this info is shared fairly.

I'm not some pie-in-the-sky intellectual. I build and fix things for an hourly wage. I think it's because of working at that level that is easy to see when shit needs to be ripped down and rebuilt, rather than patched. And also to see when structures can be repaired or re-purposed in service of a more worthy goal.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Hi-
I do not mean to pick on your post. You just expressed what a lot of people think, because of a system that has an absolute interest in keeping people "victims".
The point is: There is no alternative. The way capitalism destroys earth, and everything on it can't continue. Having an opinion that "poor people can't live sustainable lives" not only takes away their agency and shows a lack of confidence in their resiliency and ingenuity, but it diverts attention away from the institutional systems in place that inhibit them (and or legally forbid) them from acting in their own best interest. Health department red tape about selling/trading food you've grown, anyone?

It's clear that poor people get hit hardest by everything, including situations like the levees failing in the poor neighborhoods of New Orleans. (I refuse to call it "katrina"- it was corps-of-engineered racism.) but it's also clear that there are millions (billions?) more poor people than rich people, so they must be smart enough to figure out survival techniques, no?

What I, as a white US citizen see my role as is this:
Consume less. Grow more, eat what I grow and help others do the same.
Support anti-oppression organizing at local, national and international levels.
Expose and dismantle systems that keep peolple from using their local resources in their own interests.
Use the information and resources so richly available to me as a US citizen to figure out ways to heal the earth, try to make sure this info is shared fairly.

I'm not some pie-in-the-sky intellectual. I build and fix things for an hourly wage. I think it's because of working at that level that is easy to see when shit needs to be ripped down and rebuilt, rather than patched. And also to see when structures can be repaired or re-purposed in service of a more worthy goal.

I am not saying the poor can't do things. They are as capable as anyone. I guess I am just thinking, that when you work 2 minimum wage jobs to keep a roof over you and your children's heads, worry about how to get them clothes for school, can't afford a babysitter, can't afford a doctor, having to apply for food stamps, etc., how is one to have any time or energy to put into sustainable living?

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I am not saying the poor can't do things. They are as capable as anyone. I guess I am just thinking, that when you work 2 minimum wage jobs to keep a roof over you and your children's heads, worry about how to get them clothes for school, can't afford a babysitter, can't afford a doctor, having to apply for food stamps, etc., how is one to have any time or energy to put into sustainable living?

Ok, so what do you suggest? Let's talk about what we CAN do.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Ok, so what do you suggest? Let's talk about what we CAN do.

I honestly don't know. I think there are so many things that need to happen to lift up the people in poverty in the US. A lot of those things are being addressed by the Occupy movement right now. I think it would be great if we all had some option to "live off the grid" so to speak. I am not the best at being able to answer your question because I happen to be someone with very little money myself.

I live with my folks and I am on disability. They live in a planned community where the home owners association tells you what you can and can't do with your tiny front and back yards. Anything you do to your home, including what color you paint it, is dictated by the HOA here. And my folks are retired and don't have the physical ability to plant anything. They pay people to mow their lawn every week. I have agoraphobia so going out of the house isn't exactly easy for me. I don't mind trying to fix things or putting them together as long as I am in the house.

I think all the ideas put forth in this thread are great. I just don't know how people without much in the way of resources (such as moi) would be able to put them into practice. Does that somehow offend you dykeumentary?

[SoNotHer]

There's a great book entitled, Everything I Want to Do is Illegal. The HOAs have, in their infinite wisdom, made everything from hanging up clothes on a line to growing vegetables in your front yard a crime. This must and will change.

I appreciate you've got limited choices, Drew. I've had no car and taken two hour and half bus rides to work. I've slept on an old mattress on a floor with one sheet. I've gotten down to two cans of food in the cupboard, and I've had no place to live.

Obviously, when I was bouncing between a friend's couch and a vacant house and a friend's basement, I wasn't thinking about living off the grid or participating in a CSA. But the moment I had a rental contract and a place to stay, I was planting.

These times reinforced for me the idea of frugality and the value of "repurposing" of things. But I first learned to save and reuse from my mother who survived the Great Depression at least in part because she and the aunts she lived with were eating from their garden.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I honestly don't know. I think there are so many things that need to happen to lift up the people in poverty in the US. A lot of those things are being addressed by the Occupy movement right now. I think it would be great if we all had some option to "live off the grid" so to speak. I am not the best at being able to answer your question because I happen to be someone with very little money myself.

I live with my folks and I am on disability. They live in a planned community where the home owners association tells you what you can and can't do with your tiny front and back yards. Anything you do to your home, including what color you paint it, is dictated by the HOA here. And my folks are retired and don't have the physical ability to plant anything. They pay people to mow their lawn every week. I have agoraphobia so going out of the house isn't exactly easy for me. I don't mind trying to fix things or putting them together as long as I am in the house.

I think all the ideas put forth in this thread are great. I just don't know how people without much in the way of resources (such as moi) would be able to put them into practice. Does that somehow offend you dykeumentary?

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I honestly don't know. I think there are so many things that need to happen to lift up the people in poverty in the US. A lot of those things are being addressed by the Occupy movement right now. I think it would be great if we all had some option to "live off the grid" so to speak. I am not the best at being able to answer your question because I happen to be someone with very little money myself.

I live with my folks and I am on disability. They live in a planned community where the home owners association tells you what you can and can't do with your tiny front and back yards. Anything you do to your home, including what color you paint it, is dictated by the HOA here. And my folks are retired and don't have the physical ability to plant anything. They pay people to mow their lawn every week. I have agoraphobia so going out of the house isn't exactly easy for me. I don't mind trying to fix things or putting them together as long as I am in the house.

I think all the ideas put forth in this thread are great. I just don't know how people without much in the way of resources (such as moi) would be able to put them into practice. Does that somehow offend you dykeumentary?

I don't think anyone is trying to offend or deny that some people have additional challenges to consider. I believe we confront them and find solutions. We also need to be sensitive to things we don't understand.

Atom I think you are exactly where you need to be. Your parents are your family and need you. There are things you can learn to help your family. Stop looking at the "can't do's" and focus on what you "can do". It won't hurt to learn and be prepared to protect you and your family. You don't need a lot of money to do this.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I honestly don't know. I think there are so many things that need to happen to lift up the people in poverty in the US. A lot of those things are being addressed by the Occupy movement right now. I think it would be great if we all had some option to "live off the grid" so to speak. I am not the best at being able to answer your question because I happen to be someone with very little money myself.

I live with my folks and I am on disability. They live in a planned community where the home owners association tells you what you can and can't do with your tiny front and back yards. Anything you do to your home, including what color you paint it, is dictated by the HOA here. And my folks are retired and don't have the physical ability to plant anything. They pay people to mow their lawn every week. I have agoraphobia so going out of the house isn't exactly easy for me. I don't mind trying to fix things or putting them together as long as I am in the house.

I think all the ideas put forth in this thread are great. I just don't know how people without much in the way of resources (such as moi) would be able to put them into practice. Does that somehow offend you dykeumentary?

i feel this so much.

i love talking about sustainability, survival, etc. but i struggle with it a lot when working with sustainability organizers because frequently the solutions presented are NOT realistic for elders and disabled people especially, but also poor people and others. yes, in some urban areas now, if you are poor you can work on a community farm - IF you are able bodied. the truth is, most disabled people are going to be fucked when shit hits the fan because of our society's rampant individualist, independence/dependence model of dealing with disability. and there is still a LOT of 'survival of the fittest,' 'we'd be better off without the cripples' sentiment in the u.s. generally speaking. there's also a huge disconnect (in my experience) between folks who live off the grid due to severe mcs and folks who live off the grid for sustainability reasons, but there is so much in common between those two groups. i also feel like those of us who are working on building interdependent community-built access could probably focus more on working sustainably.. a lot of the work i've been doing over the last several months has dealt with introducing disability justice principles into permaculture/holistic health/sustainable living communities and trying to bridge the gaps between us. i'm not sure what the right answer is yet. but i think it's important to include disability in these conversations.

to answer the original question of the thread...

People across the world are concerned with the economic systems, food safety and how they might survive a natural catastrophic event. I know that many of you are on fixed incomes, perhaps SS and government programs that help subsidize your income. In the event there was a shut down or program cuts, how would it effect you and what is your back-up plan?

this is actually why i started doing sex work. if our entire society were to collapse or there were some kind of natural disaster it wouldn't be a viable option for me, but being a disabled person who doesn't have access to benefits and having lost my job during the recession, it is the best option for me right now. so sex work has always been my backup plan, i suppose.

i'm surprised no one's mentioned octavia butler yet...her book 'parable of the sower' is one of my favorites and was my first real introduction to sustainability/survivalist thinking.

[SugarFemme]

In my opinion, and speaking as a low income person, what I have often thought of is low income people need to pool resources like they did in old days. If you take 3-4 peoples income, abilities, and talents and have them share a home, food etc, they would be much better off. If one person is disabled and cannot do gardening, then maybe they can be in charge of bills. The person who is not so good with finances could take care of the gardening and so on. We live in such singular society that people are not so open to revisiting the past where it was a much more nuclear family situation. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Ok, so what do you suggest? Let's talk about what we CAN do.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by OneOfAKind

In my opinion, and speaking as a low income person, what I have often thought of is low income people need to pool resources like they did in old days. If you take 3-4 peoples income, abilities, and talents and have them share a home, food etc, they would be much better off. If one person is disabled and cannot do gardening, then maybe they can be in charge of bills. The person who is not so good with finances could take care of the gardening and so on. We live in such singular society that people are not so open to revisiting the past where it was a much more nuclear family situation. Just a thought.

this is exactly what you should be doing. We have moved away from hands on community models and we need to return. Network, devise a small team not only for help but moral and emotional support.

As Blade said "This is where folks learn to take care of one another."

what a very beautiful thing. When was the last time someone took care of you?



and Blade- of course I save my poops! silly boy!

[Sachita]

If you live in urban areas where you are solely dependent on public works such as sewage, water, etc. you should definitely have a back up plan. Know how you would leave if you needed to. Know what your next move might be. I know its hard but it's important to be prepared. Not just for disasters but devastating economic times. Have a food supply of some degree to at least hold you over until you figure something out. Learn some skills - how to start a fire (or buy something that will help you start a fire in wet and wind), how to create shelter, get safe water.

If you are able you begin to make a plan to live some place safer, maybe towards the country where you can at least garden, fish, forage for food. Imagine living like you did back in the old days when they didnt have electric, running water and walmart. I'm not saying you must live this way now but if you are able to live rural now would be the time to start planning to do so.

[SoNotHer]

Part of my vision with my farm involved teaching, learning and sharing. My farm has to be put on hold for now, but I would be happy to help support a gathering at Sachita's or elsewhere.

I understand your point, Drew, and I know people have to make choices they don't always want to. But seeds cost almost nothing, and even if you don't have land, you probably have a window and a pot. I grew a garden in different rented spaces, and I consumed less, recycled, walked or biked, read botany books and made other choices that didn't involve a lot of time or expense.

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Hell yes! Let's all gather at Sachita's and share skills and slow food! Let's do it!