Safety in a Failing Economy

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Hi-
I do not mean to pick on your post. You just expressed what a lot of people think, because of a system that has an absolute interest in keeping people "victims".
The point is: There is no alternative. The way capitalism destroys earth, and everything on it can't continue. Having an opinion that "poor people can't live sustainable lives" not only takes away their agency and shows a lack of confidence in their resiliency and ingenuity, but it diverts attention away from the institutional systems in place that inhibit them (and or legally forbid) them from acting in their own best interest. Health department red tape about selling/trading food you've grown, anyone?

It's clear that poor people get hit hardest by everything, including situations like the levees failing in the poor neighborhoods of New Orleans. (I refuse to call it "katrina"- it was corps-of-engineered racism.) but it's also clear that there are millions (billions?) more poor people than rich people, so they must be smart enough to figure out survival techniques, no?

What I, as a white US citizen see my role as is this:
Consume less. Grow more, eat what I grow and help others do the same.
Support anti-oppression organizing at local, national and international levels.
Expose and dismantle systems that keep peolple from using their local resources in their own interests.
Use the information and resources so richly available to me as a US citizen to figure out ways to heal the earth, try to make sure this info is shared fairly.

I'm not some pie-in-the-sky intellectual. I build and fix things for an hourly wage. I think it's because of working at that level that is easy to see when shit needs to be ripped down and rebuilt, rather than patched. And also to see when structures can be repaired or re-purposed in service of a more worthy goal.

I am not saying the poor can't do things. They are as capable as anyone. I guess I am just thinking, that when you work 2 minimum wage jobs to keep a roof over you and your children's heads, worry about how to get them clothes for school, can't afford a babysitter, can't afford a doctor, having to apply for food stamps, etc., how is one to have any time or energy to put into sustainable living?

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I am not saying the poor can't do things. They are as capable as anyone. I guess I am just thinking, that when you work 2 minimum wage jobs to keep a roof over you and your children's heads, worry about how to get them clothes for school, can't afford a babysitter, can't afford a doctor, having to apply for food stamps, etc., how is one to have any time or energy to put into sustainable living?

Ok, so what do you suggest? Let's talk about what we CAN do.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Ok, so what do you suggest? Let's talk about what we CAN do.

I honestly don't know. I think there are so many things that need to happen to lift up the people in poverty in the US. A lot of those things are being addressed by the Occupy movement right now. I think it would be great if we all had some option to "live off the grid" so to speak. I am not the best at being able to answer your question because I happen to be someone with very little money myself.

I live with my folks and I am on disability. They live in a planned community where the home owners association tells you what you can and can't do with your tiny front and back yards. Anything you do to your home, including what color you paint it, is dictated by the HOA here. And my folks are retired and don't have the physical ability to plant anything. They pay people to mow their lawn every week. I have agoraphobia so going out of the house isn't exactly easy for me. I don't mind trying to fix things or putting them together as long as I am in the house.

I think all the ideas put forth in this thread are great. I just don't know how people without much in the way of resources (such as moi) would be able to put them into practice. Does that somehow offend you dykeumentary?

[SoNotHer]

There's a great book entitled, Everything I Want to Do is Illegal. The HOAs have, in their infinite wisdom, made everything from hanging up clothes on a line to growing vegetables in your front yard a crime. This must and will change.

I appreciate you've got limited choices, Drew. I've had no car and taken two hour and half bus rides to work. I've slept on an old mattress on a floor with one sheet. I've gotten down to two cans of food in the cupboard, and I've had no place to live.

Obviously, when I was bouncing between a friend's couch and a vacant house and a friend's basement, I wasn't thinking about living off the grid or participating in a CSA. But the moment I had a rental contract and a place to stay, I was planting.

These times reinforced for me the idea of frugality and the value of "repurposing" of things. But I first learned to save and reuse from my mother who survived the Great Depression at least in part because she and the aunts she lived with were eating from their garden.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I honestly don't know. I think there are so many things that need to happen to lift up the people in poverty in the US. A lot of those things are being addressed by the Occupy movement right now. I think it would be great if we all had some option to "live off the grid" so to speak. I am not the best at being able to answer your question because I happen to be someone with very little money myself.

I live with my folks and I am on disability. They live in a planned community where the home owners association tells you what you can and can't do with your tiny front and back yards. Anything you do to your home, including what color you paint it, is dictated by the HOA here. And my folks are retired and don't have the physical ability to plant anything. They pay people to mow their lawn every week. I have agoraphobia so going out of the house isn't exactly easy for me. I don't mind trying to fix things or putting them together as long as I am in the house.

I think all the ideas put forth in this thread are great. I just don't know how people without much in the way of resources (such as moi) would be able to put them into practice. Does that somehow offend you dykeumentary?

[Sachita]

It might not be easy, however I believe we can do anything we really want to do. Instead of being forced to do it, having no choice, choose to do it and be prepared.

I spent most of my childhood, a poor girl in the ghetto, people telling me I can't do this and that. Thank Goddess I didnt believe them.

There is always a way. You have to want it bad enough. I believe you do or you wouldnt be here.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

There's a great book entitled, Everything I Want to Do is Illegal. The HOAs have, in their infinite wisdom, made everything from hanging up clothes on a line to growing vegetables in your front yard a crime. This must and will change.

I appreciate you've got limited choices, Drew. I've had no car and taken two hour and half bus rides to work. I've slept on an old mattress on a floor with one sheet. I've gotten down to two cans of food in the cupboard, and I've had no place to live.

Obviously, when I was bouncing between a friend's couch and a vacant house and a friend's basement, I wasn't thinking about living off the grid or participating in a CSA. But the moment I had a rental contract and a place to stay, I was planting.

These times reinforced for me the idea of frugality and the value of "repurposing" of things. But I first learned to save and reuse from my mother who survived the Great Depression at least in part because she and the aunts she lived with were eating from their garden.

I could not live in a HOA environment, however the times I considered creating some type of community out here I wondered how we'd approach this without so many rules. In order for people to live together collectively you must have some kind of guide. For instant I may not favor having a bunch of old cars close to my place or a lot of noise.

But I do think they take it too far when they deny someone's right to garden food. If a community like this doesnt suit your needs then find one that does.

FYI- I have a bunch of cheap shop light fixtures and those plant and aquarium bulbs. I have been successful growing all kinds of greens, bok choy, lettuce, etc in my basement. I might try growing tomatoes with them this year and hand pollinate the flowers. (its easy btw). It all depends if I get help soon or not. I need full time live in help. In fact I'm building my micro community.

Back on topic- you can get free 5 gallon buckets which make excellent grow containers. Let us get you hooked. If you have a small amount of money for some kind of lighting, I will personally ship you the seeds. Try one small edible plant and expand from there.

[Sachita]

Look at your overhead verses your income. Even if you have a low income are there ways you can save money and work towards sustainability?

For instance-

don't use paper towels, ziplock bags, etc. Use dish towels, containers.

Plan your trips to the store. Make a list ahead of what you need and go once a week.

Check your local farmers market and see if they offer coupons for disabled, retired, unemployed. Most do.

Check local farms and see if you can work out a labor trade program. Perhaps you can pull weeds, organize, clean, something? In exchange for fresh organic produce. Perhaps it only once a week and maybe you even have to take a bus but can you think of a better way to spend your day? You not only help the grass roots efforts but you help yourself. Don't waste their time. If you make a commitment stick to it. Contact them, offer to clean, do whatever they need in exchange of a box of produce of equal value.

Team up with a few friends to share meals or trade meals. Sit down, decide on a menu and health plan. When you cook there's always enough for a few meals. Make a budget with your team and share the expense and labor. Better yet sit down and share a meal or two per week.

Turn off lights, use supplemental heat when you can and heat the areas you are in. I stopped using central heat here at the farm and invested in infrared heater. I only turn them on when we need them and they are also in the dog areas set at 60 degrees. My electric bill has dropped a few hundred just doing this. I have a lot of power use because I work at home and my business (dog boarding) is at home.

Go to store offering bulk buys without packaging. Many of the health food stores offer this. You can also team up with a few local friends and purchase from bulkfoods.com they have lots of conventional and organic items.

Buy things on sale. Look online and see what stores carry organic things such as soups, beans, etc. things you can easily fix and also that store up to 2 years or longer. Check dates, buy extra on sale and begin your own stock pile.

Eat less- its amazing how much money we spend on food that will kill us.

If you are on disability consider moving to an area where the cost of living is a little cheaper and where you have good access to things. You have a wonderful resource here- get a few roommates also on disability, find affordable housing and share expenses.

more coming

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I honestly don't know. I think there are so many things that need to happen to lift up the people in poverty in the US. A lot of those things are being addressed by the Occupy movement right now. I think it would be great if we all had some option to "live off the grid" so to speak. I am not the best at being able to answer your question because I happen to be someone with very little money myself.

I live with my folks and I am on disability. They live in a planned community where the home owners association tells you what you can and can't do with your tiny front and back yards. Anything you do to your home, including what color you paint it, is dictated by the HOA here. And my folks are retired and don't have the physical ability to plant anything. They pay people to mow their lawn every week. I have agoraphobia so going out of the house isn't exactly easy for me. I don't mind trying to fix things or putting them together as long as I am in the house.

I think all the ideas put forth in this thread are great. I just don't know how people without much in the way of resources (such as moi) would be able to put them into practice. Does that somehow offend you dykeumentary?

I don't think anyone is trying to offend or deny that some people have additional challenges to consider. I believe we confront them and find solutions. We also need to be sensitive to things we don't understand.

Atom I think you are exactly where you need to be. Your parents are your family and need you. There are things you can learn to help your family. Stop looking at the "can't do's" and focus on what you "can do". It won't hurt to learn and be prepared to protect you and your family. You don't need a lot of money to do this.

[Glenn]

For those of us who have not prepared at all and are reasonably healthy if/when SHTF, and really do not know anyone close by, please, at least have a bike, some munchies, a bag of your important things like meds, water, etc., and a hand gun with at least 200 rounds of ammo so you can have a chance to bug out to another town for supplies. Also, I'd like to personally thank Sachita again for offering up her land to our community. Farmland here in the midwest, has risen to nearly $6000 an acre.

[Dominique]

I'd like us to take a few minutes to look around us. There are people all around us who need help. This is so important. I'm big on paying forward. As I said in the OWS thread, those of us that can, SHOULD.

The people needing help, may not know how to ask for help. They do not have white handkerchiefs tied to their front door. They are suffering in silence. Something as little as a ride to the grocery store (this is the first of the month, and food stamps get recharged) can be huge to a person who is feeling defeated and doesn't have a car. If you can afford $1.50, buy them a cup a coffee at the grocery store and shop with them. It will make them feel human. Too often we take time spent with people, for granted. This simple thing could very well make some ones day. That same person, I save my coupons for. I also recycle my newspaper to them. Yes, I can read it on line....but I keep the newspaper delivery person working (and I can afford the newspaper @ the $1.00 a week special I got it for) it pays for itself in the coupons. It then goes to my neighbor, who is a vietnam vet and is on a portable 02 tank. It helps him pass his day.(reading the paper, doing the crossword puzzle and the sudoku) He hand rolls the news papers into small logs and passes them on to a buddy ...

This is a time when we have to pull together as a community, as neighbors. We have to reach out. Singles moms...do you realize how much you could help if you could buy some notebooks for the kids? Something we make a habit of doing, when we go to these professional outreach programs and they are giving away promotional pencils and pens (sometimes tablets) we put them in a designated spot, and we give them to a mom with a couple of kids every little bit helps.
How sad is it to be a kid and not have a pencil...or not have paper...(heartbreaking). This is something we always do. We buy pet food every time we grocery shop (treats too) what ever is on sale. We donate it to food drives. Familys hard on their luck, have pets...and it's extremely heartbreaking when your life is falling apart, to have to give up your pet because you can't buy it food. A $3.00/ 6 pak of canned food or bagged food isn't going to break us....and it's nice to give a big bagful of pet food to a food drive.

I took 14 computer paper boxes of books I had no use for (i mean really, NO USE FOR) to half priced books.....and they gave me $72.00 for them. I went to TARGET, asked to see the pet dept manager (that isn't what they called him, but that worked) told him I was spending all my money on cat food for animal friends .....they had a request out for food. (I had the article in my pocket) He gave me two bags that
were sliced open and I bought 7, eighteen pound bags of meow mix that was on sale, and target gave them to me tax free because it was for a non profit and I was donating......see why I love TARGET!!!

Again, we have to always (if we can) pay forward. all around us people need help. It's not hard to help. It's not hard to be nice. It's very rewarding. These are desperate times for some people! (don't forget about our little animals too)

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

For those of us who have not prepared at all and are reasonably healthy if/when SHTF, and really do not know anyone close by, please, at least have a bike, some munchies, a bag of your important things like meds, water, etc., and a hand gun with at least 200 rounds of ammo so you can have a chance to bug out to another town for supplies. Also, I'd like to personally thank Sachita again for offering up her land to our community. Farmland here in the midwest, has risen to nearly $6000 an acre.

a bag of munchies and 200 rounds of ammo? lol thats funny. You can shoot your food or yourself if you get too hungry? lol

I have a few bins packed with stuff but you can pack a back-pack in the event you need to leave quickly. If you live in the city no doubt you'll have to leave.

But lets get back on topic as far as how you'll survive is the government stopped sending out money and large corporations closed down forced us into a mega recession. How can you live cheap, safe and sustain in the worse of times. Being prepared is important and I also think while you figure out a plan how to grow or get food and water, perhaps start stock piling what you can. Remember when the price of rice jumped really high? This could happen with everything. Especially the more big companies control our food sources. having enough food and water to survive should be on everyone's list. Even if you take an extra 5.00 a week, start now buying a few extra can's or a bag of rice and store it.

[Apocalipstic]

I do have a backpack of freeze dried food, blankets, wind up flashlights and wind up radio with cell phone charger.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I honestly don't know. I think there are so many things that need to happen to lift up the people in poverty in the US. A lot of those things are being addressed by the Occupy movement right now. I think it would be great if we all had some option to "live off the grid" so to speak. I am not the best at being able to answer your question because I happen to be someone with very little money myself.

I live with my folks and I am on disability. They live in a planned community where the home owners association tells you what you can and can't do with your tiny front and back yards. Anything you do to your home, including what color you paint it, is dictated by the HOA here. And my folks are retired and don't have the physical ability to plant anything. They pay people to mow their lawn every week. I have agoraphobia so going out of the house isn't exactly easy for me. I don't mind trying to fix things or putting them together as long as I am in the house.

I think all the ideas put forth in this thread are great. I just don't know how people without much in the way of resources (such as moi) would be able to put them into practice. Does that somehow offend you dykeumentary?

i feel this so much.

i love talking about sustainability, survival, etc. but i struggle with it a lot when working with sustainability organizers because frequently the solutions presented are NOT realistic for elders and disabled people especially, but also poor people and others. yes, in some urban areas now, if you are poor you can work on a community farm - IF you are able bodied. the truth is, most disabled people are going to be fucked when shit hits the fan because of our society's rampant individualist, independence/dependence model of dealing with disability. and there is still a LOT of 'survival of the fittest,' 'we'd be better off without the cripples' sentiment in the u.s. generally speaking. there's also a huge disconnect (in my experience) between folks who live off the grid due to severe mcs and folks who live off the grid for sustainability reasons, but there is so much in common between those two groups. i also feel like those of us who are working on building interdependent community-built access could probably focus more on working sustainably.. a lot of the work i've been doing over the last several months has dealt with introducing disability justice principles into permaculture/holistic health/sustainable living communities and trying to bridge the gaps between us. i'm not sure what the right answer is yet. but i think it's important to include disability in these conversations.

to answer the original question of the thread...

People across the world are concerned with the economic systems, food safety and how they might survive a natural catastrophic event. I know that many of you are on fixed incomes, perhaps SS and government programs that help subsidize your income. In the event there was a shut down or program cuts, how would it effect you and what is your back-up plan?

this is actually why i started doing sex work. if our entire society were to collapse or there were some kind of natural disaster it wouldn't be a viable option for me, but being a disabled person who doesn't have access to benefits and having lost my job during the recession, it is the best option for me right now. so sex work has always been my backup plan, i suppose.

i'm surprised no one's mentioned octavia butler yet...her book 'parable of the sower' is one of my favorites and was my first real introduction to sustainability/survivalist thinking.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by aishah

i feel this so much.

i love talking about sustainability, survival, etc. but i struggle with it a lot when working with sustainability organizers because frequently the solutions presented are NOT realistic for elders and disabled people especially, but also poor people and others. yes, in some urban areas now, if you are poor you can work on a community farm - IF you are able bodied. the truth is, most disabled people are going to be fucked when shit hits the fan because of our society's rampant individualist, independence/dependence model of dealing with disability. and there is still a LOT of 'survival of the fittest,' 'we'd be better off without the cripples' sentiment in the u.s. generally speaking. there's also a huge disconnect (in my experience) between folks who live off the grid due to severe mcs and folks who live off the grid for sustainability reasons, but there is so much in common between those two groups. i also feel like those of us who are working on building interdependent community-built access could probably focus more on working sustainably.. a lot of the work i've been doing over the last several months has dealt with introducing disability justice principles into permaculture/holistic health/sustainable living communities and trying to bridge the gaps between us. i'm not sure what the right answer is yet. but i think it's important to include disability in these conversations.

to answer the original question of the thread...



this is actually why i started doing sex work. if our entire society were to collapse or there were some kind of natural disaster it wouldn't be a viable option for me, but being a disabled person who doesn't have access to benefits and having lost my job during the recession, it is the best option for me right now. so sex work has always been my backup plan, i suppose.

i'm surprised no one's mentioned octavia butler yet...her book 'parable of the sower' is one of my favorites and was my first real introduction to sustainability/survivalist thinking.

I really want to address this but not sure how. I can talk about our challenges in bringing together a sustainable farm community. Everyone needs to do "something" in order for it to work. Exactly what that "something" is depends on the individual and needs of the community. Even if there are programs for each community to assist people with disabilities or elderly there obviously has to be a balance because you can't have a village of 30 disabled people and 5 able workers. The other thing that would concern me is what would define disability. I see able bodied people that could do "something" and not doing anything.

It doesn't cost money to make movement. I honestly get sick of the word "I can't" and hear too much of it. As long as we keep convincing ourselves that is the pattern we'll create. Learn something, teach, do anything but sit there or spend countless hours online complaining about what you don't have. This is not directed at you BTW, but my mindset. I am impressed by your gumption and honesty. I see nothing wrong with sex work if it doesnt eat your power. If you're ok with it and can use it as an effective tool then by all means! You go girl! But if you strive to step up then do it. You seem very articulate and intelligent. I bet you have a lot to offer without using your back.

But I'm not going to get caught up in the PC of it all. I do understand that they must be addressed and its everyone's responsibly.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by apretty

I really wish that you hadn't written this--It's (your reasoning is) startlingly ugly and dismissive to someone that is apparently, an ally.

I didn't mean in reference to sex work. Not at all. I meant physically work. But I should have worded it differently. Obviously I have nothing against sex work since I was a professional dominatrix for quite a number of years and have done phone sex work. My comment wasn't addressing her sex work.

[SugarFemme]

In my opinion, and speaking as a low income person, what I have often thought of is low income people need to pool resources like they did in old days. If you take 3-4 peoples income, abilities, and talents and have them share a home, food etc, they would be much better off. If one person is disabled and cannot do gardening, then maybe they can be in charge of bills. The person who is not so good with finances could take care of the gardening and so on. We live in such singular society that people are not so open to revisiting the past where it was a much more nuclear family situation. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Ok, so what do you suggest? Let's talk about what we CAN do.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by OneOfAKind

In my opinion, and speaking as a low income person, what I have often thought of is low income people need to pool resources like they did in old days. If you take 3-4 peoples income, abilities, and talents and have them share a home, food etc, they would be much better off. If one person is disabled and cannot do gardening, then maybe they can be in charge of bills. The person who is not so good with finances could take care of the gardening and so on. We live in such singular society that people are not so open to revisiting the past where it was a much more nuclear family situation. Just a thought.

this is exactly what you should be doing. We have moved away from hands on community models and we need to return. Network, devise a small team not only for help but moral and emotional support.

As Blade said "This is where folks learn to take care of one another."

what a very beautiful thing. When was the last time someone took care of you?



and Blade- of course I save my poops! silly boy!

[Sachita]

If you live in urban areas where you are solely dependent on public works such as sewage, water, etc. you should definitely have a back up plan. Know how you would leave if you needed to. Know what your next move might be. I know its hard but it's important to be prepared. Not just for disasters but devastating economic times. Have a food supply of some degree to at least hold you over until you figure something out. Learn some skills - how to start a fire (or buy something that will help you start a fire in wet and wind), how to create shelter, get safe water.

If you are able you begin to make a plan to live some place safer, maybe towards the country where you can at least garden, fish, forage for food. Imagine living like you did back in the old days when they didnt have electric, running water and walmart. I'm not saying you must live this way now but if you are able to live rural now would be the time to start planning to do so.