OCCUPY WALL STREET

[SoNotHer]

I'm wondering how many times we need to delay any kind of social and human progress by continuing to swirl with these kinds of comments which have been abundantly perpetuated, vetted and responded to clearly, succinctly, tactfully and with hope in many other ways besides violence and how long some need to continue to focus on the small exception to the otherwise preponderance of nonviolent, focused and progressive action and thinking that has been taken place.

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Who actually speaks for the Occupy movement? Who decides or articulates what its goals actually are? I'm struggling to identify who or what does this.

Desecration of property is certainly what has happened at St Paul's Cathedral in London. Rightly or wrongly, the "Occupy" movement has been perceived by many here in the UK as either participating in or supporting that desecration or, alternatively, standing back passively and enabling it to happen.

As a result, sympathy for the "Occupy" movement has fallen, certainly here in London, in recent weeks as this protest continues directly outside a place of worship.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

I'm wondering how many times we need to delay any kind of social and human progress by continuing to swirl with these kinds of comments which have been abundantly perpetuated, vetted and responded to clearly, succinctly, tactfully and with hope in many other ways besides violence and how long some need to continue to focus on the small exception to the otherwise preponderance of nonviolent, focused and progressive action and thinking that has been taken place.

All well & good but I walk past St Paul's Cathedral every morning and evening.

That's my closest "real" experience of the "Occupy" movement and, especially very early in the morning when I walk by, I see a lot of rubbish and streams of human waste. The gathering has prevented some acts of worship from taking place and, more generally, tourists are now avoiding the historic site. I cannot blame them - I would too.

So for me it ain't about these kinds of comments which have been abundantly perpetuated, vetted and responded to clearly, succinctly, tactfully , rather it's about what I see and experience 5 days of the week and it ain't positive. In fact, the opposite when London's already stretched police resources have to deal with the crowd control and petty crime that this has attracted.

Apologies if my personal experience isn't to everyone's liking or if it's viewed as biased (which it undoubtedly is but you got the diplomatic version) but that's how I call it.

[atomiczombie]

The violent police assaults across the US are no coincidence. Occupy has touched the third rail of our political class's venality


Naomi Wolf
guardian.co.uk, Friday 25 November 2011 12.25 EST
Article history

US citizens of all political persuasions are still reeling from images of unparallelled police brutality in a coordinated crackdown against peaceful OWS protesters in cities across the nation this past week. An elderly woman was pepper-sprayed in the face; the scene of unresisting, supine students at UC Davis being pepper-sprayed by phalanxes of riot police went viral online; images proliferated of young women – targeted seemingly for their gender – screaming, dragged by the hair by police in riot gear; and the pictures of a young man, stunned and bleeding profusely from the head, emerged in the record of the middle-of-the-night clearing of Zuccotti Park.

But just when Americans thought we had the picture – was this crazy police and mayoral overkill, on a municipal level, in many different cities? – the picture darkened. The National Union of Journalists and the Committee to Protect Journalists issued a Freedom of Information Act request to investigate possible federal involvement with law enforcement practices that appeared to target journalists. The New York Times reported that "New York cops have arrested, punched, whacked, shoved to the ground and tossed a barrier at reporters and photographers" covering protests. Reporters were asked by NYPD to raise their hands to prove they had credentials: when many dutifully did so, they were taken, upon threat of arrest, away from the story they were covering, and penned far from the site in which the news was unfolding. Other reporters wearing press passes were arrested and roughed up by cops, after being – falsely – informed by police that "It is illegal to take pictures on the sidewalk."

In New York, a state supreme court justice and a New York City council member were beaten up; in Berkeley, California, one of our greatest national poets, Robert Hass, was beaten with batons. The picture darkened still further when Wonkette and Washingtonsblog.com reported that the Mayor of Oakland acknowledged that the Department of Homeland Security had participated in an 18-city mayor conference call advising mayors on "how to suppress" Occupy protests.

To Europeans, the enormity of this breach may not be obvious at first. Our system of government prohibits the creation of a federalised police force, and forbids federal or militarised involvement in municipal peacekeeping.

I noticed that rightwing pundits and politicians on the TV shows on which I was appearing were all on-message against OWS. Journalist Chris Hayes reported on a leaked memo that revealed lobbyists vying for an $850,000 contract to smear Occupy. Message coordination of this kind is impossible without a full-court press at the top. This was clearly not simply a case of a freaked-out mayors', city-by-city municipal overreaction against mess in the parks and cranky campers. As the puzzle pieces fit together, they began to show coordination against OWS at the highest national levels.

Why this massive mobilisation against these not-yet-fully-articulated, unarmed, inchoate people? After all, protesters against the war in Iraq, Tea Party rallies and others have all proceeded without this coordinated crackdown. Is it really the camping? As I write, two hundred young people, with sleeping bags, suitcases and even folding chairs, are still camping out all night and day outside of NBC on public sidewalks – under the benevolent eye of an NYPD cop – awaiting Saturday Night Live tickets, so surely the camping is not the issue. I was still deeply puzzled as to why OWS, this hapless, hopeful band, would call out a violent federal response.

That is, until I found out what it was that OWS actually wanted.

The mainstream media was declaring continually "OWS has no message". Frustrated, I simply asked them. I began soliciting online "What is it you want?" answers from Occupy. In the first 15 minutes, I received 100 answers. These were truly eye-opening.

The No 1 agenda item: get the money out of politics. Most often cited was legislation to blunt the effect of the Citizens United ruling, which lets boundless sums enter the campaign process. No 2: reform the banking system to prevent fraud and manipulation, with the most frequent item being to restore the Glass-Steagall Act – the Depression-era law, done away with by President Clinton, that separates investment banks from commercial banks. This law would correct the conditions for the recent crisis, as investment banks could not take risks for profit that create kale derivatives out of thin air, and wipe out the commercial and savings banks.

No 3 was the most clarifying: draft laws against the little-known loophole that currently allows members of Congress to pass legislation affecting Delaware-based corporations in which they themselves are investors.

When I saw this list – and especially the last agenda item – the scales fell from my eyes. Of course, these unarmed people would be having the shit kicked out of them.

For the terrible insight to take away from news that the Department of Homeland Security coordinated a violent crackdown is that the DHS does not freelance. The DHS cannot say, on its own initiative, "we are going after these scruffy hippies". Rather, DHS is answerable up a chain of command: first, to New York Representative Peter King, head of the House homeland security subcommittee, who naturally is influenced by his fellow congressmen and women's wishes and interests. And the DHS answers directly, above King, to the president (who was conveniently in Australia at the time).

In other words, for the DHS to be on a call with mayors, the logic of its chain of command and accountability implies that congressional overseers, with the blessing of the White House, told the DHS to authorise mayors to order their police forces – pumped up with millions of dollars of hardware and training from the DHS – to make war on peaceful citizens.

But wait: why on earth would Congress advise violent militarised reactions against its own peaceful constituents? The answer is straightforward: in recent years, members of Congress have started entering the system as members of the middle class (or upper middle class) – but they are leaving DC privy to vast personal wealth, as we see from the "scandal" of presidential contender Newt Gingrich's having been paid $1.8m for a few hours' "consulting" to special interests. The inflated fees to lawmakers who turn lobbyists are common knowledge, but the notion that congressmen and women are legislating their own companies' profitsis less widely known – and if the books were to be opened, they would surely reveal corruption on a Wall Street spectrum. Indeed, we do already know that congresspeople are massively profiting from trading on non-public information they have on companies about which they are legislating – a form of insider trading that sent Martha Stewart to jail.

Since Occupy is heavily surveilled and infiltrated, it is likely that the DHS and police informers are aware, before Occupy itself is, what its emerging agenda is going to look like. If legislating away lobbyists' privileges to earn boundless fees once they are close to the legislative process, reforming the banks so they can't suck money out of fake derivatives products, and, most critically, opening the books on a system that allowed members of Congress to profit personally – and immensely – from their own legislation, are two beats away from the grasp of an electorally organised Occupy movement … well, you will call out the troops on stopping that advance.

So, when you connect the dots, properly understood, what happened this week is the first battle in a civil war; a civil war in which, for now, only one side is choosing violence. It is a battle in which members of Congress, with the collusion of the American president, sent violent, organised suppression against the people they are supposed to represent. Occupy has touched the third rail: personal congressional profits streams. Even though they are, as yet, unaware of what the implications of their movement are, those threatened by the stirrings of their dreams of reform are not.

Sadly, Americans this week have come one step closer to being true brothers and sisters of the protesters in Tahrir Square. Like them, our own national leaders, who likely see their own personal wealth under threat from transparency and reform, are now making war upon us.

Right on Naomi Wolf.

LINK: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...cupy?fb=optOut

[SoNotHer]

I'm sorry to hear that's been your experience. It hasn't been mine.

I think most people want redress for the loss of their homes, businesses, savings, jobs and lives in the most peaceful, civil and satisfactory manner possible.

Originally Posted by Ciaran

All well & good but I walk past St Paul's Cathedral every morning and evening.

That's my closest "real" experience of the "Occupy" movement and, especially very early in the morning when I walk by, I see a lot of rubbish and streams of human waste. The gathering has prevented some acts of worship from taking place and, more generally, tourists are now avoiding the historic site. I cannot blame them - I would too.

So for me it ain't about these kinds of comments which have been abundantly perpetuated, vetted and responded to clearly, succinctly, tactfully , rather it's about what I see and experience 5 days of the week and it ain't positive. In fact, the opposite when London's already stretched police resources have to deal with the crowd control and petty crime that this has attracted.

Apologies if my personal experience isn't to everyone's liking or if it's viewed as biased (which it undoubtedly is but you got the diplomatic version) but that's how I call it.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

I think most people want redress for the loss of their homes, businesses, savings, jobs and lives in the most peaceful, civil and satisfactory manner possible.

I know plenty of people who lost their jobs as a result of the "crisis". They worked in banking (as do I - and I won't apologise for that) so it wasn't just a loss of a job but, also, any equity they had built up in the company (profit shares, annual bonuses, monthly saving schemes etc) over periods of time up to 30 years. Some lost it all.

Although they're very frustrated by the crisis, by aspects of regulation of the financial sector and general incompetence, none of these folk are members of the Occupy movement.

If it's about redress for loss during the crisis, that's understandable (I lost much more during the crisis than most) but if they want to do it in a civil manner then, certainly, in the city I live they are going about it the wrong way. Furthermore, it has distanced them from the middle ground which has been angered by how they've turned the grounds outside St Pauls' into something resembling an itinerant camp. 99%? I'd be surprised if they have the support of 9% of the people here in London.

[SoNotHer]

The UK has a very different set of financial regulations and a different system of taxation as does Canada. The US is more deregulated and has a different tax structure. And the losses here have not been insignificant.

We can swirl in semantics about percentages and degrees, but the point of the movement is simple enough, and frankly it's a point well taken. We can and should do better.

I would also submit to you that earth's human population is seven billion and counting, and so socio-economic injustice and societies no longer set up to even present the simulacrum of opportunity and stratification and instead represent increasingly polarized factions of the "haves" and "have nots" are primed for something other than "business as usual." I wouldn't take something away from people that they believe they deserve or have come to respect and expect no reaction. We're clearly seeing cause and effect in motion.

Originally Posted by Ciaran

I know plenty of people who lost their jobs as a result of the "crisis". They worked in banking (as do I - and I won't apologise for that) so it wasn't just a loss of a job but, also, any equity they had built up in the company (profit shares, annual bonuses, monthly saving schemes etc) over periods of time up to 30 years. Some lost it all.

Although they're very frustrated by the crisis, by aspects of regulation of the financial sector and general incompetence, none of these folk are members of the Occupy movement.

If it's about redress for loss during the crisis, that's understandable (I lost much more during the crisis than most) but if they want to do it in a civil manner then, certainly, in the city I live they are going about it the wrong way. Furthermore, it has distanced them from the middle ground which has been angered by how they've turned the grounds outside St Pauls' into something resembling an itinerant camp. 99%? I'd be surprised if they have the support of 9% of the people here in London.

[Cin]

Don’t look to billion dollar corporations who pay ZERO taxes for help.

Don’t look to the businesses who actually get paid by our government to move our jobs elsewhere.

Don’t look to the rich who pay less taxes than the rest of us. They pay 17% (if they pay anything at all. And many don’t, thanks to awesome loopholes); we pay 35%.

Certainly don’t look to the financial sector, the cause of this mess in the first place.

Where should we get money to stimulate the economy and balance the federal budget?

Why out of the mouths of the poor and the hungry of course.

*I am wondering how giving people less to eat will supply enough money to stimulate the economy? It must make sense if Congress wants to do it. They are noted for their sense making skills after all. What do the poor need to eat for anyway? Think of how much money we could save if they would all just starve already. I mean considering how warm it is because of global climate change clearly they won’t be freezing to death anytime soon. What choice do we have?

The poor have long been whiny, annoying, buzz kills. Always wanting food, clothing, warmth, housing, medical care, they even wish for dental care, and I’m so sick of hearing how they want jobs. Anarchists. If they would just spend more time working and less time complaining we wouldn’t have to starve them to death. Clearly tolerating their sorry asses hasn’t worked. Feeding them certainly doesn’t make any sense anymore. And if they are weak enough maybe they won’t keep trying to get to the voting booths.

It’s about time we actively seek their timely demise. We can't afford poor people. And clearly they aren’t taking the hint. They insist on existing. They can’t even starve gracefully.



US Congress Seeks to Cut Food Stamp Program
Problems for poor to intensify if food-stamps program that assists 45 million people gets reduced.

Advocates for the poor and often hungry in the US say that problems for the nation's needy could intensify if the agriculture department bows to pressure from congress to reduce food-assistance schemes.

Politicians are looking at ways to stimulate the economy and balance the federal budget with a proposed $4.2bn cut in its food-stamps program that currently assists 45 million people.

According to a recent US government report, some 15 per cent of Americans are relying on food stamps. That is a 50 per cent jump from last year at a cost of $65bn per year.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Don’t look to billion dollar corporations who pay ZERO taxes for help.

Don’t look to the businesses who actually get paid by our government to move our jobs elsewhere.

Don’t look to the rich who pay less taxes than the rest of us. They pay 17% (if they pay anything at all. And many don’t, thanks to awesome loopholes); we pay 35%.

Certainly don’t look to the financial sector, the cause of this mess in the first place.

Where should we get money to stimulate the economy and balance the federal budget?

Why out of the mouths of the poor and the hungry of course.

*I am wondering how giving people less to eat will supply enough money to stimulate the economy? It must make sense if Congress wants to do it. They are noted for their sense making skills after all. What do the poor need to eat for anyway? Think of how much money we could save if they would all just starve already. I mean considering how warm it is because of global climate change clearly they won’t be freezing to death anytime soon. What choice do we have?

The poor have long been whiny, annoying, buzz kills. Always wanting food, clothing, warmth, housing, medical care, they even wish for dental care, and I’m so sick of hearing how they want jobs. Anarchists. If they would just spend more time working and less time complaining we wouldn’t have to starve them to death. Clearly tolerating their sorry asses hasn’t worked. Feeding them certainly doesn’t make any sense anymore. And if they are weak enough maybe they won’t keep trying to get to the voting booths.

It’s about time we actively seek their timely demise. We can't afford poor people. And clearly they aren’t taking the hint. They insist on existing. They can’t even starve gracefully.



US Congress Seeks to Cut Food Stamp Program
Problems for poor to intensify if food-stamps program that assists 45 million people gets reduced.

Advocates for the poor and often hungry in the US say that problems for the nation's needy could intensify if the agriculture department bows to pressure from congress to reduce food-assistance schemes.

Politicians are looking at ways to stimulate the economy and balance the federal budget with a proposed $4.2bn cut in its food-stamps program that currently assists 45 million people.

According to a recent US government report, some 15 per cent of Americans are relying on food stamps. That is a 50 per cent jump from last year at a cost of $65bn per year.

Our government never ceases to amaze me. They have literally screwed out food system and now they will starve people.

[Glenn]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

they've turned the grounds outside St Pauls' into something resembling an itinerant camp. 99%? I'd be surprised if they have the support of 9% of the people here in London.

Big ****ing deal! This is the way the frustrated and disadvantagd lobby, in the streets. It has been played out many times in history and will, whether you like it or not. This is a shaming and elitist attitude to have. I'm sorry the "litter" in front of St. Paul's does'nt fit into your neat little idealogical box, but the very social fabric of our civilization is being torn apart due to the waste, corruption, extortion, unaccountability, and unfettered greed behind closed doors by those at the very top and their stubborness in refusing to address these issues, preferring personal gain at the expense of long-term social stability. Clean up this corruption at the top and put these people in jail instead of the OWS campers. "Litter" in the streets is small potatoes compared to corporate and purchasable.gov. and their wasteful spending.

[Gráinne]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

Big ****ing deal! This is the way the frustrated and disadvantagd lobby, in the streets. It has been played out many times in history and will, whether you like it or not. This is a shaming and elitist attitude to have. I'm sorry the "litter" in front of St. Paul's does'nt fit into your neat little idealogical box, but the very social fabric of our civilization is being torn apart due to the waste, corruption, extortion, unaccountability, and unfettered greed behind closed doors by those at the very top and their stubborness in refusing to address these issues, preferring personal gain at the expense of long-term social stability. Clean up this corruption at the top and put these people in jail instead of the OWS campers. "Litter" in the streets is small potatoes compared to corporate and purchasable.gov. and their wasteful spending.

I believe your right to protest ends where my nose begins, literally. If you want to march, fine. But mess with cultural monuments or even public parks spoiled for the rest of us, and drive off business around the parks, and sorry, you lose my sympathy.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by guihong

I believe your right to protest ends where my nose begins, literally. If you want to march, fine. But mess with cultural monuments or even public parks spoiled for the rest of us, and drive off business around the parks, and sorry, you lose my sympathy.

The thing with sympathy is you can't eat it, wear it, burn it to keep warm, or use it to buy medicine. You can't pay your mortgage with it either. So I don't think it's really of any use. And thank god for that. Look around the world, it's a pretty unsympathetic place. The only thing harder to find than sympathy or compassion is a job.

If we had to wait for sympathy to save ourselves, well... let's just say I'm glad we don't.

Sympathy not needed.

We all could use some equity of treatment though. And since nobody who is advantaged or even thinks they are heading in that direction is going to be in favor of, or have any sympathy for, a more equitable and fair society then the majority of people who are not advantaged are just going to have to ignore the whining of the rich and would be rich and make it happen in spite of them. But first they have to see what's wrong, understand the lies, believe in themselves and in their country. And that's the job of OWS to be a visible reminder of what is very wrong. And to help us see more clearly, to help us understand what happened and how it all went so very wrong. If we don't open our eyes those that can will continue to steal our dreams from us. We have to take back the government from the control of the few. We need to ensure that the promise of a government that is of the people, by the people and for the people does not perish from the earth.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by guihong

I believe your right to protest ends where my nose begins, literally. If you want to march, fine. But mess with cultural monuments or even public parks spoiled for the rest of us, and drive off business around the parks, and sorry, you lose my sympathy.

it's so wierd that you say that cuz that's exactly how i feel about elevating someone else's lifestyle at the expense of my own and then for it to be against the law for me to have something to say about that. funny how that works. i'm soooo glad i don't need a stranger's sympathy to be capable of moral enlightenment.

imagine a world of gardeners/farmers that abhorred the dirt. what would we eat?

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

Big ****ing deal! This is the way the frustrated and disadvantagd lobby, in the streets. It has been played out many times in history and will, whether you like it or not. This is a shaming and elitist attitude to have.

Rubbish. Rather, it's elitest for this "movement" to talk of being the 99%.

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

I'm sorry the "litter" in front of St. Paul's does'nt fit into your neat little idealogical box, but the very social fabric of our civilization is being torn apart due to the waste, corruption, extortion, unaccountability, and unfettered greed behind closed doors by those at the very top and their stubborness in refusing to address these issues, preferring personal gain at the expense of long-term social stability. Clean up this corruption at the top and put these people in jail instead of the OWS campers. "Litter" in the streets is small potatoes compared to corporate and purchasable.gov. and their wasteful spending.

Desecration of a church is something I don't like. I won't apologise for that. It's not about an "ideeological box" whatever the **** that is.

Very over dramatic to talk of "the very social frabric of our civilisation is being torn apart", esp given that the unfettered greed and selfishness has existed since God created Adam & Eve. It didn't originate from the 2007 / 2008 financial crisis and it won't end once the Occupy movement burns itself out in early 2012.

[Diavolo]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Rubbish. Rather, it's elitest for this "movement" to talk of being the 99%.



Desecration of a church is something I don't like. I won't apologise for that. It's not about an "ideeological box" whatever the **** that is.

Very over dramatic to talk of "the very social frabric of our civilisation is being torn apart", esp given that the unfettered greed and selfishness has existed since God created Adam & Eve. It didn't originate from the 2007 / 2008 financial crisis and it won't end once the Occupy movement burns itself out in early 2012.

If the churches (Kings of Columbus and LDS) hadn't banded together in California to push through an agenda of hate in the form of Proposition 8 I might feel differently, but if you're going to get in the muck, you'd better be ready to get dirty. The churches gave up their right to feign desecration when they funded an election to take away my right to marry the person of my choice. Game over.

[persiphone]