OCCUPY WALL STREET

[SoNotHer]

I'm sorry to hear that's been your experience. It hasn't been mine.

I think most people want redress for the loss of their homes, businesses, savings, jobs and lives in the most peaceful, civil and satisfactory manner possible.

Originally Posted by Ciaran

All well & good but I walk past St Paul's Cathedral every morning and evening.

That's my closest "real" experience of the "Occupy" movement and, especially very early in the morning when I walk by, I see a lot of rubbish and streams of human waste. The gathering has prevented some acts of worship from taking place and, more generally, tourists are now avoiding the historic site. I cannot blame them - I would too.

So for me it ain't about these kinds of comments which have been abundantly perpetuated, vetted and responded to clearly, succinctly, tactfully , rather it's about what I see and experience 5 days of the week and it ain't positive. In fact, the opposite when London's already stretched police resources have to deal with the crowd control and petty crime that this has attracted.

Apologies if my personal experience isn't to everyone's liking or if it's viewed as biased (which it undoubtedly is but you got the diplomatic version) but that's how I call it.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

I think most people want redress for the loss of their homes, businesses, savings, jobs and lives in the most peaceful, civil and satisfactory manner possible.

I know plenty of people who lost their jobs as a result of the "crisis". They worked in banking (as do I - and I won't apologise for that) so it wasn't just a loss of a job but, also, any equity they had built up in the company (profit shares, annual bonuses, monthly saving schemes etc) over periods of time up to 30 years. Some lost it all.

Although they're very frustrated by the crisis, by aspects of regulation of the financial sector and general incompetence, none of these folk are members of the Occupy movement.

If it's about redress for loss during the crisis, that's understandable (I lost much more during the crisis than most) but if they want to do it in a civil manner then, certainly, in the city I live they are going about it the wrong way. Furthermore, it has distanced them from the middle ground which has been angered by how they've turned the grounds outside St Pauls' into something resembling an itinerant camp. 99%? I'd be surprised if they have the support of 9% of the people here in London.

[SoNotHer]

The UK has a very different set of financial regulations and a different system of taxation as does Canada. The US is more deregulated and has a different tax structure. And the losses here have not been insignificant.

We can swirl in semantics about percentages and degrees, but the point of the movement is simple enough, and frankly it's a point well taken. We can and should do better.

I would also submit to you that earth's human population is seven billion and counting, and so socio-economic injustice and societies no longer set up to even present the simulacrum of opportunity and stratification and instead represent increasingly polarized factions of the "haves" and "have nots" are primed for something other than "business as usual." I wouldn't take something away from people that they believe they deserve or have come to respect and expect no reaction. We're clearly seeing cause and effect in motion.

Originally Posted by Ciaran

I know plenty of people who lost their jobs as a result of the "crisis". They worked in banking (as do I - and I won't apologise for that) so it wasn't just a loss of a job but, also, any equity they had built up in the company (profit shares, annual bonuses, monthly saving schemes etc) over periods of time up to 30 years. Some lost it all.

Although they're very frustrated by the crisis, by aspects of regulation of the financial sector and general incompetence, none of these folk are members of the Occupy movement.

If it's about redress for loss during the crisis, that's understandable (I lost much more during the crisis than most) but if they want to do it in a civil manner then, certainly, in the city I live they are going about it the wrong way. Furthermore, it has distanced them from the middle ground which has been angered by how they've turned the grounds outside St Pauls' into something resembling an itinerant camp. 99%? I'd be surprised if they have the support of 9% of the people here in London.

[Cin]

Don’t look to billion dollar corporations who pay ZERO taxes for help.

Don’t look to the businesses who actually get paid by our government to move our jobs elsewhere.

Don’t look to the rich who pay less taxes than the rest of us. They pay 17% (if they pay anything at all. And many don’t, thanks to awesome loopholes); we pay 35%.

Certainly don’t look to the financial sector, the cause of this mess in the first place.

Where should we get money to stimulate the economy and balance the federal budget?

Why out of the mouths of the poor and the hungry of course.

*I am wondering how giving people less to eat will supply enough money to stimulate the economy? It must make sense if Congress wants to do it. They are noted for their sense making skills after all. What do the poor need to eat for anyway? Think of how much money we could save if they would all just starve already. I mean considering how warm it is because of global climate change clearly they won’t be freezing to death anytime soon. What choice do we have?

The poor have long been whiny, annoying, buzz kills. Always wanting food, clothing, warmth, housing, medical care, they even wish for dental care, and I’m so sick of hearing how they want jobs. Anarchists. If they would just spend more time working and less time complaining we wouldn’t have to starve them to death. Clearly tolerating their sorry asses hasn’t worked. Feeding them certainly doesn’t make any sense anymore. And if they are weak enough maybe they won’t keep trying to get to the voting booths.

It’s about time we actively seek their timely demise. We can't afford poor people. And clearly they aren’t taking the hint. They insist on existing. They can’t even starve gracefully.



US Congress Seeks to Cut Food Stamp Program
Problems for poor to intensify if food-stamps program that assists 45 million people gets reduced.

Advocates for the poor and often hungry in the US say that problems for the nation's needy could intensify if the agriculture department bows to pressure from congress to reduce food-assistance schemes.

Politicians are looking at ways to stimulate the economy and balance the federal budget with a proposed $4.2bn cut in its food-stamps program that currently assists 45 million people.

According to a recent US government report, some 15 per cent of Americans are relying on food stamps. That is a 50 per cent jump from last year at a cost of $65bn per year.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Don’t look to billion dollar corporations who pay ZERO taxes for help.

Don’t look to the businesses who actually get paid by our government to move our jobs elsewhere.

Don’t look to the rich who pay less taxes than the rest of us. They pay 17% (if they pay anything at all. And many don’t, thanks to awesome loopholes); we pay 35%.

Certainly don’t look to the financial sector, the cause of this mess in the first place.

Where should we get money to stimulate the economy and balance the federal budget?

Why out of the mouths of the poor and the hungry of course.

*I am wondering how giving people less to eat will supply enough money to stimulate the economy? It must make sense if Congress wants to do it. They are noted for their sense making skills after all. What do the poor need to eat for anyway? Think of how much money we could save if they would all just starve already. I mean considering how warm it is because of global climate change clearly they won’t be freezing to death anytime soon. What choice do we have?

The poor have long been whiny, annoying, buzz kills. Always wanting food, clothing, warmth, housing, medical care, they even wish for dental care, and I’m so sick of hearing how they want jobs. Anarchists. If they would just spend more time working and less time complaining we wouldn’t have to starve them to death. Clearly tolerating their sorry asses hasn’t worked. Feeding them certainly doesn’t make any sense anymore. And if they are weak enough maybe they won’t keep trying to get to the voting booths.

It’s about time we actively seek their timely demise. We can't afford poor people. And clearly they aren’t taking the hint. They insist on existing. They can’t even starve gracefully.



US Congress Seeks to Cut Food Stamp Program
Problems for poor to intensify if food-stamps program that assists 45 million people gets reduced.

Advocates for the poor and often hungry in the US say that problems for the nation's needy could intensify if the agriculture department bows to pressure from congress to reduce food-assistance schemes.

Politicians are looking at ways to stimulate the economy and balance the federal budget with a proposed $4.2bn cut in its food-stamps program that currently assists 45 million people.

According to a recent US government report, some 15 per cent of Americans are relying on food stamps. That is a 50 per cent jump from last year at a cost of $65bn per year.

Our government never ceases to amaze me. They have literally screwed out food system and now they will starve people.

[Glenn]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

they've turned the grounds outside St Pauls' into something resembling an itinerant camp. 99%? I'd be surprised if they have the support of 9% of the people here in London.

Big ****ing deal! This is the way the frustrated and disadvantagd lobby, in the streets. It has been played out many times in history and will, whether you like it or not. This is a shaming and elitist attitude to have. I'm sorry the "litter" in front of St. Paul's does'nt fit into your neat little idealogical box, but the very social fabric of our civilization is being torn apart due to the waste, corruption, extortion, unaccountability, and unfettered greed behind closed doors by those at the very top and their stubborness in refusing to address these issues, preferring personal gain at the expense of long-term social stability. Clean up this corruption at the top and put these people in jail instead of the OWS campers. "Litter" in the streets is small potatoes compared to corporate and purchasable.gov. and their wasteful spending.

[Gráinne]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

Big ****ing deal! This is the way the frustrated and disadvantagd lobby, in the streets. It has been played out many times in history and will, whether you like it or not. This is a shaming and elitist attitude to have. I'm sorry the "litter" in front of St. Paul's does'nt fit into your neat little idealogical box, but the very social fabric of our civilization is being torn apart due to the waste, corruption, extortion, unaccountability, and unfettered greed behind closed doors by those at the very top and their stubborness in refusing to address these issues, preferring personal gain at the expense of long-term social stability. Clean up this corruption at the top and put these people in jail instead of the OWS campers. "Litter" in the streets is small potatoes compared to corporate and purchasable.gov. and their wasteful spending.

I believe your right to protest ends where my nose begins, literally. If you want to march, fine. But mess with cultural monuments or even public parks spoiled for the rest of us, and drive off business around the parks, and sorry, you lose my sympathy.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by guihong

I believe your right to protest ends where my nose begins, literally. If you want to march, fine. But mess with cultural monuments or even public parks spoiled for the rest of us, and drive off business around the parks, and sorry, you lose my sympathy.

The thing with sympathy is you can't eat it, wear it, burn it to keep warm, or use it to buy medicine. You can't pay your mortgage with it either. So I don't think it's really of any use. And thank god for that. Look around the world, it's a pretty unsympathetic place. The only thing harder to find than sympathy or compassion is a job.

If we had to wait for sympathy to save ourselves, well... let's just say I'm glad we don't.

Sympathy not needed.

We all could use some equity of treatment though. And since nobody who is advantaged or even thinks they are heading in that direction is going to be in favor of, or have any sympathy for, a more equitable and fair society then the majority of people who are not advantaged are just going to have to ignore the whining of the rich and would be rich and make it happen in spite of them. But first they have to see what's wrong, understand the lies, believe in themselves and in their country. And that's the job of OWS to be a visible reminder of what is very wrong. And to help us see more clearly, to help us understand what happened and how it all went so very wrong. If we don't open our eyes those that can will continue to steal our dreams from us. We have to take back the government from the control of the few. We need to ensure that the promise of a government that is of the people, by the people and for the people does not perish from the earth.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by guihong

I believe your right to protest ends where my nose begins, literally. If you want to march, fine. But mess with cultural monuments or even public parks spoiled for the rest of us, and drive off business around the parks, and sorry, you lose my sympathy.

it's so wierd that you say that cuz that's exactly how i feel about elevating someone else's lifestyle at the expense of my own and then for it to be against the law for me to have something to say about that. funny how that works. i'm soooo glad i don't need a stranger's sympathy to be capable of moral enlightenment.

imagine a world of gardeners/farmers that abhorred the dirt. what would we eat?

[Toughy]

As I was watching the news this morning, a story about Occupy SF was aired. They went to Union Square yesterday during the Black Friday madness to protest. Thousands of shop til you drop buying from big department stores were there to see the Xmas tree light up. One of the Occupy leaders (yes there are leaders whether or not anyone wants to admit that) was interviewed and he said we should not shop AT ALL. We should make gifts, not buy them.

This struck me as completely wrong-headed. I have no gripes with a slow down of shopping corporate stores. However we should be shopping exclusively at small local businesses. Small business is the backbone of creating and maintaining communities and the real economy.

It is 'small business saturday' and we should all shop small local business every day not just today.

[persiphone]

i'm too lazy to compile all the articles, but there were several instances of violence in several Wal-Marts across the country...some amongst shoppers themselves, and some against the shoppers by hired security involving...you guessed it...pepper spray.

on a side note....i find the moving up of Black Friday by retail stores to be tacky. i think that both the moving of these sales to be earlier (encroaching on family holidays) and the violence that happened all over the country to get to these deals is indicative of a really glaringly obvious turn of priorites we have actively been engaged in this country, even if we aren't aware of it.

as a mom, i'm tired of holidays that mean nothing more than buying candy and presents. let's look at them:

halloween~bags of candy, candy, candy
christmas~candy and presents
valentines~candy and presents
easter~baskets of candy and possibly small presents

it gets old. i'm not saying that there aren't traditions and such. i'm saying that i'm tired of the barrage of pressure to buy candy and presents to feel warm fuzzies around these holidays.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Toughy

As I was watching the news this morning, a story about Occupy SF was aired. They went to Union Square yesterday during the Black Friday madness to protest. Thousands of shop til you drop buying from big department stores were there to see the Xmas tree light up. One of the Occupy leaders (yes there are leaders whether or not anyone wants to admit that) was interviewed and he said we should not shop AT ALL. We should make gifts, not buy them.

This struck me as completely wrong-headed. I have no gripes with a slow down of shopping corporate stores. However we should be shopping exclusively at small local businesses. Small business is the backbone of creating and maintaining communities and the real economy.

It is 'small business saturday' and we should all shop small local business every day not just today.

I agree Toughy- I know it is hard for many to pass up saving some on items on their list, but our local merchants need our business! Also, they participate in many revitalization efforts of communities that help make them safer and do bring direct tax revenues back to schools and other public services like fire stations and hospitals. And they do not have mega-million dollar lobbyists on Capitol Hill on their behalf.

Most big-box enterprises are entrenched in Wall Street and take money out of the US.

In the last 3 years, I have seen 8 small businesses close in El Cerrito and those are just the ones that I shopped in. The owners are and were (2 lost their homes and have moved) my neighbors, living within less than two miles from me.

I bet there are several people you know that were part of the fantastic revitalization efforts in Oakland that are just trying to hang on. Think of how many of them that gave part-time jobs to teens and supported community activities.

Today is Small Business Shopping Day!! I only have to buy one gift (we do a drawing in my family and have a cut off price)- and I am buying it at a local merchant. Yes, I priced it via online and would save about $7 if I bought it at best Buy (I drew a teen family member this year) and I do need to stick to a budget, but I am buying it at the Guitar Store here. It's the least I can do for my town.

Activism is well.... taking ACTION...

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

Big ****ing deal! This is the way the frustrated and disadvantagd lobby, in the streets. It has been played out many times in history and will, whether you like it or not. This is a shaming and elitist attitude to have.

Rubbish. Rather, it's elitest for this "movement" to talk of being the 99%.

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

I'm sorry the "litter" in front of St. Paul's does'nt fit into your neat little idealogical box, but the very social fabric of our civilization is being torn apart due to the waste, corruption, extortion, unaccountability, and unfettered greed behind closed doors by those at the very top and their stubborness in refusing to address these issues, preferring personal gain at the expense of long-term social stability. Clean up this corruption at the top and put these people in jail instead of the OWS campers. "Litter" in the streets is small potatoes compared to corporate and purchasable.gov. and their wasteful spending.

Desecration of a church is something I don't like. I won't apologise for that. It's not about an "ideeological box" whatever the **** that is.

Very over dramatic to talk of "the very social frabric of our civilisation is being torn apart", esp given that the unfettered greed and selfishness has existed since God created Adam & Eve. It didn't originate from the 2007 / 2008 financial crisis and it won't end once the Occupy movement burns itself out in early 2012.

[Diavolo]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Rubbish. Rather, it's elitest for this "movement" to talk of being the 99%.



Desecration of a church is something I don't like. I won't apologise for that. It's not about an "ideeological box" whatever the **** that is.

Very over dramatic to talk of "the very social frabric of our civilisation is being torn apart", esp given that the unfettered greed and selfishness has existed since God created Adam & Eve. It didn't originate from the 2007 / 2008 financial crisis and it won't end once the Occupy movement burns itself out in early 2012.

If the churches (Kings of Columbus and LDS) hadn't banded together in California to push through an agenda of hate in the form of Proposition 8 I might feel differently, but if you're going to get in the muck, you'd better be ready to get dirty. The churches gave up their right to feign desecration when they funded an election to take away my right to marry the person of my choice. Game over.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Diavolo

The churches gave up their right to feign desecration when they funded an election to take away my right to marry the person of my choice. Game over.

There's no game over as that would suggest you've won some sort of victory. You haven't. Desecration is desecration is desecration.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

There's no game over as that would suggest you've won some sort of victory. You haven't. Desecration is desecration is desecration.

like the desecration of childrens lives at the hands of pedophiles in priests robes. seems like it comes from both sides and the church has never struck me as a victim of anything throughout history.

[Diavolo]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

There's no game over as that would suggest you've won some sort of victory. You haven't. Desecration is desecration is desecration.

It's an American colloquial term, referring to the end of a video game. I haven't won a thing. As a matter of fact, we all lose.

The church has no right after what they did to us in California. None. They have no right in America after they allowed the protests at the funerals of fallen soldiers. They lose the right to absolution from desecration in this country by their behavior. When it's all said and done, St. Peter is going to look at these clowns and ask them why in the world they think they should be allowed past the pearly gates because they have not followed God's word. Perhaps the church has behaved better in England. Oh no, that can't be it, that's why we're here in the America in the first place.

[persiphone]