OCCUPY WALL STREET

[Toughy]

The 'war on drugs' is a farce and has done nothing to stop drug trafficking or drug use in the country.

Did you know pot is more dangerous than heroin or coke...according to the Schedule I classification. Coke and heroin has some medicinal use and marijuana has NO medical use....at least according to the federal government.

All drugs should be legal so we can get some control over the manufacture, distribution and sale. I would be happy to start with completely legalizing marijuana........

Occupy movement should add this to their list. More POC are in jail for pot than white folks and then there is the inconsistency between jail time for powdered coke vs crack. IF you are convicted of a felony you lose your voting rights. You can petition the courts to get your vote back but not many know that.

[ruffryder]

Originally Posted by Toughy

The 'war on drugs' is a farce and has done nothing to stop drug trafficking or drug use in the country.

Did you know pot is more dangerous than heroin or coke...according to the Schedule I classification. Coke and heroin has some medicinal use and marijuana has NO medical use....at least according to the federal government.

All drugs should be legal so we can get some control over the manufacture, distribution and sale. I would be happy to start with completely legalizing marijuana........

Occupy movement should add this to their list. More POC are in jail for pot than white folks and then there is the inconsistency between jail time for powdered coke vs crack. IF you are convicted of a felony you lose your voting rights. You can petition the courts to get your vote back but not many know that.

I'm sorry. How does this fit in or help the OWS movement.? Just trying to grasp this thought in relation to corporate greed and lowering taxes for the middle class. I think one thing at a time would benefit the movement more. Maybe they should all focus on one thing in common and attack the government and wall street with that..for instance affordable health care. Please explain..maybe it's a great idea. I'm missing it.

[Toughy]

It's relevant because of racism, which is one of the hallmarks of corporate greed (in the US). It alo speaks to the militarization of our police (as was pointed out in the article). How in the hell do you think the CIA funds itself?

[persiphone]

personally, i think we should move to suspend the presidential elections until democracy and the rights of the citizens here are restored. i'm tired of participating in a political process designed to imprison us.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by persiphone

personally, i think we should move to suspend the presidential elections until democracy and the rights of the citizens here are restored. i'm tired of participating in a political process designed to imprison us.

I agree but how could we do that? We can't even stop the senate from passing bills erasing our rights as citizens of the United States. And I don't even want to get started on the average citizen awareness of what is happening to our rights. Even when they are aware they are apathetic at best. Percentage wise people just aren't getting it.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I agree but how could we do that? We can't even stop the senate from passing bills erasing our rights as citizens of the United States. And I don't even want to get started on the average citizen awareness of what is happening to our rights. Even when they are aware they are apathetic at best. Percentage wise people just aren't getting it.

well its not like politicians aren't aggressively trying to suppress voters. i say let's turn it around on them and show up at the polls and help them with that. let's make it impossible for anyone to vote.

[Gráinne]

Originally Posted by persiphone

well its not like politicians aren't aggressively trying to suppress voters. i say let's turn it around on them and show up at the polls and help them with that. let's make it impossible for anyone to vote.

I'll take it that's tongue in cheek. My grandmothers marched for that right to vote and I'll be darned if anyone stops me.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by persiphone

well its not like politicians aren't aggressively trying to suppress voters. i say let's turn it around on them and show up at the polls and help them with that. let's make it impossible for anyone to vote.

LOL. It sounds good. There are some potential problems though.

I'm thinking then the five people who managed to get through and vote for Romney will elect the president.

Also if we have enough people aware and willing to act that we could stop the elections why not just use that power to put someone in office who would not be bought.

Oh wait, is that even possible? Are there people who are not for sale?

We are taught from our first breath that we are and should be for sale one way or another. Work is the ethic. Sell the hours of your life to the highest bidder. And in the case of the poor and the uneducated it is a pitiful bid indeed. It would be hard not to be for sale.

Laws need to be changed or made that will protect us and keep money out of government. But I guess stopping the election isn't a bad idea. Anything that isn't business as usual is worth a shot.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Originally Posted by persiphone

personally, i think we should move to suspend the presidential elections until democracy and the rights of the citizens here are restored. i'm tired of participating in a political process designed to imprison us.

I've pretty much decided the presidential elections don't mean squat. Congress runs the country now - a congress which is influenced by wealthy special interests. Maybe the governors run some stuff too.

I would spout off about the line-item veto and campaign reforms here, but my cynicism is starting to outweigh my optimism. I really don't know what can be done. (Is there an icon for hopelessness?)

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaMa'am

I've pretty much decided the presidential elections don't mean squat. Congress runs the country now - a congress which is influenced by wealthy special interests. Maybe the governors run some stuff too.

I would spout off about the line-item veto and campaign reforms here, but my cynicism is starting to outweigh my optimism. I really don't know what can be done. (Is there an icon for hopelessness?)

i think it's high time we put our foot down and just say NO to a defunct political process. if there are NO votes then there can be no decision on anything. then what can they do? make not voting illegal?

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Toughy

It's relevant because of racism, which is one of the hallmarks of corporate greed (in the US). It alo speaks to the militarization of our police (as was pointed out in the article). How in the hell do you think the CIA funds itself?

This is so true. The U.S. puts so many of its citizens in jail compared to, well actually compared to anywhere. In January 2010 the rate of incarceration was 743 adults per 100,000. Guess how many were white compared to POC. Now that the prison systems are privatized it is such a money making operation that nothing is likely to be legalized. The more jailed the better. The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

Whenever they declare war on inanimate objects like drugs, terrorism and poverty they are really just finding new ways to continue unchallenged and overly funded with their war on the poor. It's just their fancy way of declaring class warfare.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

This is so true. The U.S. puts so many of its citizens in jail compared to, well actually compared to anywhere. In January 2010 the rate of incarceration was 743 adults per 100,000. Guess how many were white compared to POC. Now that the prison systems are privatized it is such a money making operation that nothing is likely to be legalized. The more jailed the better. The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

Whenever they declare war on inanimate objects like drugs, terrorism and poverty they are really just finding new ways to continue unchallenged and overly funded with their war on the poor. It's just their fancy way of declaring class warfare.

Exactly. And we have a governor in Georgia who thinks we should use prison labor to take over all the farm labor jobs that were left when the illegal immigrants were driven out. - The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[ruffryder]

Thanks for the clarification Toughy. I don't see how legalizing drugs aids the OWS movement still. I think it would bring more financial problems still to the middle class and those that can't afford the medication they need now and aid as you say the CIA, law enforcement, and the rich and corporations are the ones who deal it. hmmm.. As for racism. I'm not seeing that either. The people in this movement that are being discriminated against are the middle class and poor and they are the ones being made to pay more for services and product, it doesn't matter what race they are only that they are in a certain income bracket and being taken advantage of. I guess if you could explain further I may see it how legalizing drugs helps anyone that is protesting for equal financial and corporate rights. Thanks.

I would love to see people not vote in the next election, especially for President. How we get people to not vote is another question and not going to happen. I do think OWS will think of something to protest though when election time comes up and I can't wait to see that and what happens.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

I don't see how legalizing drugs aids the OWS movement still. I think it would bring more financial problems still to the middle class and those that can't afford the medication they need now and aid as you say the CIA, law enforcement, and the rich and corporations are the ones who deal it. hmmm.. As for racism. I'm not seeing that either. The people in this movement that are being discriminated against are the middle class and poor and they are the ones being made to pay more for services and product, it doesn't matter what race they are only that they are in a certain income bracket and being taken advantage of. I guess if you could explain further I may see it how legalizing drugs helps anyone that is protesting for equal financial and corporate rights. Thanks.

I would love to see people not vote in the next election, especially for President. How we get people to not vote is another question and not going to happen. I do think OWS will think of something to protest though when election time comes up and I can't wait to see that and what happens.

I think it is not so much about what will aid the OWS Movement as it is about what will aid the poor and the middle class. The movement is a resource, a means to an end, not an end in itself. In that spirit, the spirit of what is best for the 99%, legalizing drugs would eliminate the excuse to continue with the kind of duplicity our government and its friends engage in, as well as the excuse to lock up unprecedented amounts of U.S. citizens. It would free up amazing amounts of money and it would put a cramp in the continued militarization of the police, at least until they found another excuse in the form of another inanimate object or ideology to declare war on. In this particular instance, the war on drugs, race is important because it is our sisters and brothers of color who pay the heaviest price. Actually, it is always our sisters and brothers of color who pay the heaviest price. So in my opinion you cannot over emphasize racism. I don't think you can over emphasize any ism. They are all connected. An intricately woven tapestry of control and subjugation. Our freedom is irrevocably bound up in each other and our recognition of this tapestry, our connectiveness, and how we must make use of the strength we have together. Alone we are powerless but together our power would be awe inspiring.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaMa'am

Exactly. And we have a governor in Georgia who thinks we should use prison labor to take over all the farm labor jobs that were left when the illegal immigrants were driven out. - The more things change, the more they stay the same.

but this is so tyical of big business when they are the ones that pushed for the visas that specifically are designed to populate the ag culture.

edited to add.....*insert for profit prison here*

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

This is so true. The U.S. puts so many of its citizens in jail compared to, well actually compared to anywhere. In January 2010 the rate of incarceration was 743 adults per 100,000. Guess how many were white compared to POC. Now that the prison systems are privatized it is such a money making operation that nothing is likely to be legalized. The more jailed the better. The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

Whenever they declare war on inanimate objects like drugs, terrorism and poverty they are really just finding new ways to continue unchallenged and overly funded with their war on the poor. It's just their fancy way of declaring class warfare.

well welcome to the world of for profit prisons. human bodies are needed to turn a profit.

[Gráinne]

I hope you don't mind my questions again . I'm honestly not trying to stir things up, or even necessarily oppose all of OWS, but I'm a great pain in the neck, you have to give me that!

1. Let's say that OWS "wins" their #1 priority, whatever that would be. There seems to be so many goals, but let's say something equivalent to the desegregation of the Montgomery buses, or desegregation of Central High School. Both of those changed a great deal of lives, no matter if the people were involved with the civil rights movement or not. What is your "win", and what would it look like to someone not in the movement or associated with banking or politics? How would I know the difference in my daily life?

2. I read a terrifying little book in high school called Animal Farm, which should be required reading. It is Orwell's satire of the Russian Revolution, and I know some would say we're already there in our own country. I know OWS is run apparently without leaders, all are equal, and majority votes and all that. How would the movement, if it grows, handle the human nature to divide up into classes, as the animals do? The novel starts with good intentions and a utopian idea but goes haywire. If you do elect leaders, are they not more powerful themselves by definition?

I can see we'll never agree, but I'm trying to see your side.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Originally Posted by guihong

2. I read a terrifying little book in high school called Animal Farm, which should be required reading. It is Orwell's satire of the Russian Revolution, and I know some would say we're already there in our own country. I know OWS is run apparently without leaders, all are equal, and majority votes and all that. How would the movement, if it grows, handle the human nature to divide up into classes, as the animals do? The novel starts with good intentions and a utopian idea but goes haywire. If you do elect leaders, are they not more powerful themselves by definition?

I can see we'll never agree, but I'm trying to see your side.

An egalitarian utopia is an extreme ideal. A democratic free market is also an extreme ideal.

However, human beings don't thrive within extreme idealism. It's impossible to come up with a system of government that treats everyone fairly in all circumstances. So humans swing back and forth between ideals - conservatism and liberalism, communism and fascism, fanaticism and atheism, etc. - and I HOPE (and in my more Disney moments I think most people hope) that we continually work toward some kind of moderation and balance.
Unfortunately, sometimes the momentum of a swing in one direction is too much. Then we become entrenched in some extreme and it's harder to get back to the middle.

I'm sure you can think of lots of examples when a group went too far in one direction: Nazi Germany, Jonestown, the Salem Witch Trials. When a movement goes too far in one direction, it loses touch with its source of critical inquiry, and therefore loses its integrity and focus on its original goals. In other words, it becomes a mob.

And since I'm on my soapbox, I'll say I think the U.S. has gotten disturbingly far away from its original goals. What were those? Why, they were written down and called the Bill of Rights. They were limitations on the government to protect personal freedom.

Let's review:

1. Freedom of speech, the press and assembly. OWS, police raids - exactly what we've been discussing here. (I used to work in journalism - the oldest joke in the business was that freedom of the press only belongs to the publisher - in other words, whoever owns the press.)

2. The right to keep and bear arms. Threatened constantly by liberals and conservatives, each in their own way. Easily obtained weapons cause problems. But still - if only one side has all the weapons, the other doesn't stand a chance.

3. Protection from quartering of troops. Well, we do spend a lot of money, and give up a lot of personal freedom, to maintain police forces and the military. But they aren't living in my spare bedroom and eating at my kitchen table - yet.

4. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure. Did you read those articles just a few posts up explaining how the police don't bother with getting warrants any more? They just send in militarized SWAT units to overwhelm with force. (And anything they seize, as in, "We found half a 20-year-old joint in your scrapbook so we're going to take your house and everything you own and send you to jail and we don't care if it leaves your family homeless," goes to finance their own operations - see #3.)

This is too depressing. Somebody else pick up here, if you wish. I'm getting down off my soapbox - I'm dizzy. If you stuck with me this long, thanks - you went above and beyond the call.