OCCUPY WALL STREET

[SoNotHer]

I think Toughy and RR are having a good if heated discussion, but I appreciate GeogiaMa'am's post and had to laugh a little. It would be ideal to have this discussion over a pool table and drinks. And yes, Corkey is answering question with a response that I agree with. If America is truly a democracy, then voting is a right. My most recent NAACP letter addresses this.

Of Animal Farm and its messages, it's probably good to keep a few things in context. The book offers a satirical look at early communism. Orwell himself was a critic of Stalin and Stalinist policies, had difficulty finding a publisher for the book because of this, and identified more as a socialist democrat. Through a glass darkly, the book explores the idea of common wealth and equality in a realistic and dystopic vision that ultimately leads to the realization that "some animals are more equal than others."

Of course Orwell gave us another vision in 1984 - that of three super powers, Oceania, Eastasia and Eurasia, in a perpetual state of war with the all-knowing and seeing ministries of truth, peace, plenty and love guiding individual actions, and thoughts ultimately toward a collective resignation of any other love before the love of Big Brother and love itself as an act of dissent. Scary stuff, or at least it is to me, and it feels like we're getting a little too close to this vision in our own realities.

[Toughy]

let us not get into literary derails.......I am currently reading the unabridged version of Stranger in a Strange Land. I grok in the fullness of time......when I don't...

Idiocy around the Constitution makes me unreasonable. I doubt anyone who has never taken an 'oath to uphold the Constitution'.......understands what that mean.

All y'all.............would you willingly take an

'oath to uphold the Constutution against all enemies foriegn and domestic' seriously...........

think about it............that means I will work to overthrow a government that subverts the Constitution ..........and I will do it in spite of orders from my superiors.........mutiny if required to uphold that oath..................

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Toughy

let us not get into literary derails.......I am currently reading the unabridged version of Stranger in a Strange Land. I grok in the fullness of time......when I don't...

Idiocy around the Constitution makes me unreasonable. I doubt anyone who has never taken an 'oath to uphold the Constitution'.......understands what that mean.

All y'all.............would you willingly take an

'oath to uphold the Constutution against all enemies foriegn and domestic' seriously...........

think about it............that means I will work to overthrow a government that subverts the Constitution ..........and I will do it in spite of orders from my superiors.........mutiny if required to uphold that oath..................

My allegiance is to the Constitution not any one party or government. I took that Oath as well, our elected leaders forget they took the same exact Oath and have forsworn to another (Norquist) They have perpetrated Treason.

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by Corkey

My allegiance is to the Constitution not any one party or government. I took that Oath as well, our elected leaders forget they took the same exact Oath and have forsworn to another (Norquist) They have perpetrated Treason.

Hmmm, Interesting. Do you mean our elected leaders have created war against (we) the people?

If so, nicely stated.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

Hmmm, Interesting. Do you mean our elected leaders have created war against (we) the people?

If so, nicely stated.

Any elected member of Congress or the Senate or the the Presidency that signs a pledge that usurps the Oath of office, yes they have perpetrated Treason. It is the duty of every armed service member to uphold their Oath of allegiance to the Constitution, not to individual entities. Remember they work for us. Treason is not war, it is an act against the Constitution.

[Toughy]

economic and social justice............for all


check your local news about occupy no foreclosure,,,,,,,,,,,,

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Originally Posted by Toughy

economic and social justice............for all


check your local news about occupy no foreclosure,,,,,,,,,,,,

Awesome! Words are great, but action is more satisfying. Let's all go lie down in front of a bulldozer and handcuff ourselves to each other!

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaMa'am

Awesome! Words are great, but action is more satisfying. Let's all go lie down in front of a bulldozer and handcuff ourselves to each other!

So what is your alternative? What would you do?

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I doubt anyone who has never taken an 'oath to uphold the Constitution'.......understands what that mean.

All y'all.............would you willingly take an

'oath to uphold the Constutution against all enemies foriegn and domestic' seriously...........

think about it............that means I will work to overthrow a government that subverts the Constitution ..........and I will do it in spite of orders from my superiors.........mutiny if required to uphold that oath..................

Short answer: No, I wouldn't.

Longer answer: I understand the implications of oaths and why it's imperative that they be honored. I am really grateful that there are people, such as you, who take this particular oath and follow through with whatever is required. I am relieved that there are people like you who are on "my side". It is people like you who enable me to have the freedom to examine and critique and explore whatever I think will ultimately make the world a better place.

Believe me, I completely understand that if people like myself didn't have protectors, we'd be killed early in the fight and then the world would belong to the biggest military power, no matter what they believed in. They might even do a better job running the place. But it would be a world created by a smaller portion of all the people who could have lived and contributed and loved and worked and created, if the physically weak hadn't been protected.

Summary: I wouldn't take that oath because my loyalty is to Truth, Love, Beauty and the Universe. The power of Good. The Force. God/dess. Laugh if you will, call me naive, but somebody has to do it, or there will be no one around to point out the possibilities of what we could become. It's simply in my nature to be this way - it's how I think. So no, I'd never honestly be able to take that oath, because I would always reserve the right to question it, to make sure it continued to support Everything That's Important and didn't become misused and warped.

But thank you for taking it.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaMa'am

Short answer: No, I wouldn't.

Longer answer: I understand the implications of oaths and why it's imperative that they be honored. I am really grateful that there are people, such as you, who take this particular oath and follow through with whatever is required. I am relieved that there are people like you who are on "my side". It is people like you who enable me to have the freedom to examine and critique and explore whatever I think will ultimately make the world a better place.

Believe me, I completely understand that if people like myself didn't have protectors, we'd be killed early in the fight and then the world would belong to the biggest military power, no matter what they believed in. They might even do a better job running the place. But it would be a world created by a smaller portion of all the people who could have lived and contributed and loved and worked and created, if the physically weak hadn't been protected.

Summary: I wouldn't take that oath because my loyalty is to Truth, Love, Beauty and the Universe. The power of Good. The Force. God/dess. Laugh if you will, call me naive, but somebody has to do it, or there will be no one around to point out the possibilities of what we could become. It's simply in my nature to be this way - it's how I think. So no, I'd never honestly be able to take that oath, because I would always reserve the right to question it, to make sure it continued to support Everything That's Important and didn't become misused and warped.

But thank you for taking it.

laughin.............

I will be back to talk about this...........but not now...........

just as a point......My oath was to all those ideals of truth, good , love and all that blah blah blah...read the document I swore fealty to........

I am secure in my belief and sworn oath to a voice of equality for all

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Originally Posted by Toughy

read the document I swore fealty to........

(@Toughy - I will! I don't think I've ever read it before. I'm interested now.)

[SoNotHer]

If literature "derails," then maybe we should find another track. Writers and artists have been giving us visions of the past, present and future for some time now. And if these visions represent derailments, may we need to be stopped and taken off course and be forced to look at the paths we're on. Stranger in a Strange Land may well be the right place to begin our new journey.

The funny thing about democracy is that it's like conversation. It relies on patience, respect and a fundamental belief in equality. You may not agree with what someone is saying, but you pay them the respect of listening because that's what's right and because you want them to hear what you're saying.

Creativity, individuality, the promise of the human mind - these are all things I value, defend, cultivate and work with every day as a teacher and against increasing odds. And I suspect others on this thread do exactly the same thing in their personal and professional lives.

Originally Posted by Toughy

let us not get into literary derails.......I am currently reading the unabridged version of Stranger in a Strange Land. I grok in the fullness of time......when I don't...

Idiocy around the Constitution makes me unreasonable. I doubt anyone who has never taken an 'oath to uphold the Constitution'.......understands what that mean.

All y'all.............would you willingly take an

'oath to uphold the Constutution against all enemies foriegn and domestic' seriously...........

think about it............that means I will work to overthrow a government that subverts the Constitution ..........and I will do it in spite of orders from my superiors.........mutiny if required to uphold that oath..................