Possible Triggering: Violence against butches.

[Merlin]

Quoted by Yoda in the star wars movies and also used in the facebook group wipeout homophobia but it is a wise statement.

Fear is the path to the dark side,Fear leads to anger,anger leads to hate,hate leads to suffering.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm not sure exactly where I'm going with this, but it feels very linked in to this thread. I experienced sexual assault more than once before I began "appearing" butch in my late teens, after growing into that "butch look" more I'd experienced physical and a lot of verbal assault.

At this time I no longer outwardly appear even close to as butch as I once did, MUCH harder to peg and I have to say I am jaw dropping like staggered at how extremely consistently differently I am treated. Being outwardly butch for decades I was well aware of the stares and slurs and like I said getting in scraps... but I was never aware how many ppl were just remaining silent.

When I walk around now, ppl talk to me, "Hey hot enough for you?"... "Are you my new neighbor?" "Hey looks like that dog is walking you!" lots of joking all the people that smile at me... and just say hello... some ppl did this before, but the difference is like I said, absolutely freaking staggering. I had no idea, even being smack dab in the middle of it (I was "outwardly" butch for over twenty years). In my opinion butches experience a form of double jeopardy... being/females physically and or women and also gender variant and queer. Maybe like triple jeopardy I guess.

Now... today, walking down a lonely street I am more, feel more keenly aware of the risk to me of sexual assault (perhaps just my own perception or ghost of the past haunting me) but feel (hindsightedly) much more aware of the danger of being butch in this world. I can't even feel good about all the "kinder" attention now, I feel guilty when it happens... and I think about all my bro's and sisters out there.

Like I said... I don't know where I'm going with this... kind of rambling out things that have been on my mind, but I'll just say pls be AWARE and be SAFE...

Thank you for posting this. Certainly resonates with me- in reverse. It wasn't until the past decade that I really came into my butch identity more in terms of outward appearance. Although, I too, have been both sexually and physically assualted in my life and continue to be very aware of vulnerability to rape as a woman, there is a big difference in exactly the things you mention- people (as in "general" public) are much less likely to greet me and say hello or even hold any eye contact. How I am treated by store employees, etc. in stores is different., etc. I have had incidences that I talked about previously happen much more often than when I was just a "regular" lesbian such as name calling and the usual verbal sexual challenges by men. I won't use public transportation alone or late at night anymore.

I felt much safer prior to allowing myself to let the "butch look" just be for myself. There has been a cost even though I know I live in a much more open geographic region in the US.

[asphaltcowboi]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Very interesting thread. Here is my possibly triggering reply.

I have been attacked several times in my life, and one aspect of this that i don't think has been covered in this thread is how class intersects with violence against butches. I have had many dirty, hard, physical labor jobs, and so dress in work clothes that appear to be "gender non-conforming" even if that's what makes sense for that kind of work. Also, I am out as a butch lesbian. This has enraged many working class guys to the point of wanted to harm me. Because of the financial circumstances at different times in my life, environmental conditions were advantageous to men who wanted to hurt or kill me (physical isolation from someone who might help, noisy industrial places where my yells for help couldnt be heard, not enough light to see who the people were, co-workers afraid to lose their jobs in support of me, etc.) For example, I have been beaten at construction sites where I worked, and also beaten as I had to walk home late at night (bus lines had stopped). Being a poor woman is just more dangerous generally. There is no heirarchy of oppression; its just that 'the way things are' makes poor women more vulnerable physically, and then they have fewer options for there to be support, or even legal recourse after the attacks. Heaven help the poor _________ . (fill in the blank with your favorite deviant).

(Side note: Domestic worker rights are queer rights -- Congrats to domestic workers for the victories lately!)

And here's an odd one: Once I was getting beaten up, the men were hitting and kicking me and yelling "fucking dyke!" the whole time. Some men came running over to help, and because of them the attackers were arrested. The police report of the incident (that I had to sign while strapped to a back/neck board in the hospital) didn't include any of that language from during the attack. I asked the officer, and he said "I didn't want to embarass your family." Go figure.

i would like to add a little to this great post.. it has seemed to me beeing a butch that has always worked in male dom fields it seemed the better i was at my job the more i would be bashed/targeted by my male co-workers.
i dont think its quite as bad today as it was in my bar curousing days but gay establishments were always in back alleys in bad neiborhoods. witch made us easy targets for haters.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by cody

i would like to add a little to this great post.. it has seemed to me beeing a butch that has always worked in male dom fields it seemed the better i was at my job the more i would be bashed/targeted by my male co-workers.
i dont think its quite as bad today as it was in my bar curousing days but gay establishments were always in back alleys in bad neiborhoods. witch made us easy targets for haters.

^5 for butches in male dominated work places

Yes that's so true about the locatoon of the bars. And the coded names of the bars, too!
Having the gay bars be out of the way also had advantages for the cops, too. When they were having a slow night or whatever, they'd cuff us as we left thr bar, and take us down to the station to run our records. I'm sure they were glad not many people were watching that harassment.

[Glenn]

This thread triggers alot of anger in me because of what I've seen, been through, and heard about, plus, I'm born a little hot-blooded to begin with. I've yelled at cops, thugs, whatever, when I've seen some bully bigger or out-numbering someone: WHAT THE ***DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING? I'm surprised I have'nt got in more trouble than I have. I empathize with you all greatly, but we have to stand up to bullies. I know what it feels like when guys get in your face threatening you, and punching you, while you weakly look around for help. Most people ignore dangerous situations that can turn violent, even though there are twenty againest one assaulter, they still cower and do nothing, and walk past, or come by later asking if you're ok. Where I came from, you don't ask, you just pull the trigger. If my life is on the line, you better believe somebody's going to sleep. So yeah..from now on I'm packing heat, and don't test my accuracy with my Glock-it's deadly. Read the conceal and carry laws and self defense laws in your state, then go buy a KahrPM9 and carry it with you. If anybody tries to assault you and yours, tell them forcfully to leave, if they keep on trying to assault you, then it's open season. If someone tries to **** with you stand in front of your femme if you are out-numbered or outsized,and they threaten you with a weapon or fists, then it's open season. There's no excuse to let yourself be terrorized. If the police are'nt there to protect me, then that duty is up to me.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Converse

Yes of course, all of the verbal assaults, the majority of which have happened when I’ve been with a Femme- I have never fully understood why, perhaps others have thoughts on that”.

My thoughts, as a femme, as to why this happens is based on my personal experiences when I was in my 20's & 30's. Bio men that are insecure tend to look at femmes/ feminine women, as their property.

It confuses and threatens them to see an attractive younger femme with a butch female. I literally had a couple ask me one time: "What does she have that I don't have?" I wasn't afraid for myself as much as I was afraid of potential violence against my ex-butch (or I might have explained it to them).

This type of thing did not happen when I was out with my femme girl-friend. They were not threatened by two feminine women together. If they knew I was gay, they in fact, found it titillating.

My ex-husband paid minimal child support when I was with the femme but when I got with ex-butch, he became very angry and stopped paying, period. "What she can't support you...?"

[Rockinonahigh]

I have gotten the wrong bathroom coment lots of times right along with a manager of a wall mart comeing into the bathroom to tell me security was comeing to remove me from there,I showed her my drivers licence wich solved the problem but the situation dose happen again when I go to wall mart and some other places.Often I am very aware of the comments and stares of f-in dyke or dam trannies comments,when I was much younger I was involved in some outright fist fights because of being who I am.Even now in places where I least expect to deal with this it happends,lately its happends at one of the pool halls I go to by another butch on one of the other teams...she gives me the worst dirty looks or makes filipant coments all the time..whene ever my team is in a match with hers she always manages to not play a match with me and has told her team captain she wouldnt so not to play us against each other.I have no clue what her prob is,but its hers not mine.A couple of months ago a gay man was beat up at a pool hall by a straight man with the but end of a pool stick very badly and is now in a nurseing home due to his injuries leaveing him so messed up.
I just keep it in mind cause to get to comfy isnt being careful as much as I would like it to be other wise,I park my car in as safe a place as possable and hopefuly a placed where a security cam is avalable,not that its would do much for protection but as some evedence if I ever needed it..if the cam even works or is used.In this day and age its too bad we have to still deal with such violence against glbt folks,I doubt if it ever will be totaly gone but do have hopes it will become a punishable crime to be taken seriously and steps taken to punish the perps and make it stick insted of brushing it off into some other chatges...hate is hate no matter how u paint it.

[AtLast]

Another electrifying packing device to consider! Yes, I have put a 250 plus pound jackass down to the ground with this!



I don't want to carry a firearm and these are legal in almost all states and very effective.

[Glenn]

When said jackass is boring down on you with intent to harm or kill you, you will have to wait until you make contact and hold it on them for a good 4 or 5 seconds with some stun guns. This gives them time to brush it away. You also have to factor in the resistance of the human body. Is he wearing inductive clothes? Does he have a weak nervous system? This is why there are instances where stun guns can kill people, or be brushed off like a bee sting. It has it's uses, it's better than nothing, but I still would'nt use this for home self defense.

[rustedrims]

All i am thinking is WoW.!!.
Guess i dont have it so bad..

I have been living in this little town all my life so people around here see me often and am part of the landscape..I did get my garden hose cut but that was a direct result of my sisters troubles trickling into my life..{Another Thread}..

Think it was the fall before last i got home from work and saw a "Gay Word" spray painted on my mailbox..Found out later it was some kids..We had a warm night and they needed something to do i guess..The thing is they spelled it wrong..There are easer words to spell to get the point across..I got a can of black spray paint and painted over it and eventually changed my mailbox and post..It needed it anyway..

In the work place..
There were a few comments said behind my back..I eventually heard about them from people telling me..Newspapers were layed out in my work area for me to see..Mostly about Gay Marriages when that was in the news..I wanted to grab those papers wad them up in a ball and shove them down the guys throat that left them there..Yeah the guy who couldnt get a date and if he did never lasted but a few weeks..SO SO bad i wanted to get up and tell those people i worked with at the time that they need to read those articles because i Do know what is going on and that they needed to educate themselves..!!..That was hard to hold in..

My most trouble..
My family tree is kinda on the unhealthy side..I wanted to stay more healthyer so i ran my dog every morning and started lifting weights..I kept that up regularly and people noticed my build was changing..Then i heard the comments..Alot of them..I noticed the guys that were making the comments were 30-40 pounds over weight or was having trouble at home..People dont say to much anymore because they know i will confront them about it..Kinda tell them if you want to know anything about me why did you ask someone else you should ask me..Did that to one guy and he had alot of nothing to say..I do remember a guy asked a guy i worked with who was hung better you or her..??..Well if you gotta ask then i guess it is ME..!!..He was over weight and not happy at home..Guess that made him feel better saying that about me..Ya know the thing was that i was tearing my house apart room by room and i didnt get very much help..I had to pick up everything by myself and it was easer if i had a little build to my body..That is all that was..I wasnt trying to be Atlas by any means..

[ButchEire]

I can't imagine living like that, jesus. I guess i've been lucky that every man in my life has treated me like a guy. Subsequently, my cousin taught me early on how to fight and hold my own. I've never been in a situation where i've been threatened at all. I've been in some of the worst places in the United States for violence too, including Newark and never had a problem.

[RNguy]

Inside work I'm all business. I don't socialize a lot at work because I'm pretty OCD about work and serious . I catch a hard time about that . My recreational activities are hunting and fishing mostly so unlike my coworkers I don't go to bars or anything like that . My coworkers a lot of times after work go out to bars and drink and cut loose especially if its a coworkers birthday. I never go and I always catch reef about not socializing and cutting loose . This was 10 years ago , I finally gave in and said ok ill go join you coworkers when I get off work at 11. I was leery as this was a straight bar , country music type of bar and I've only been to a bar once prior . Just not my thing . I wasn't 7 steps in the bar and 2 cowboys approached me and said " hey faggot the stonewall is down the road , youre in the wrong place here fag " the other cowboy knocked me plum out . I didn't remember getting hit , I was laid out cold . My coworkers picked me up , carried me out and drove me home . I bet smokey stood over top of me and said you got knocked the !@#$ out . Anyways that's the one thing I have experienced . I had a nice shiner for a while though. It's sad folks are so hateful - RNguy

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

When said jackass is boring down on you with intent to harm or kill you, you will have to wait until you make contact and hold it on them for a good 4 or 5 seconds with some stun guns. This gives them time to brush it away. You also have to factor in the resistance of the human body. Is he wearing inductive clothes? Does he have a weak nervous system? This is why there are instances where stun guns can kill people, or be brushed off like a bee sting. It has it's uses, it's better than nothing, but I still would'nt use this for home self defense.

Actually, it was pretty easy to get him on the stomach and just 1 second made him move back and he was confused just at that sensation and the sound. Then, I did hold it about 3 seconds on him and he dropped. I ran like hell. The whole idea was to get out of the situation. There are also wands available.

[Glenn]

Yeah... well you have to trust your gut and be quick, like that scene in "Taxi Driver". Some cowboys trained dropping a coin from their waist, counting the seconds till it hit the floor.The guy who is angriest and gets the first hit, wins from what I, and others experienced in street fighting. The first street fight I had was with a pretty femme gang member who was smiling at me, I got distracted looking at her face, and she decked me!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

Yeah... well you have to trust your gut and be quick, like that scene in "Taxi Driver". Some cowboys trained dropping a coin from their waist and counting the seconds till it hit the floor.The guy who is angriest and gets the first hit, wins from what I've experienced in street fighting. The first street fight I had was with a pretty femme gang member who was smiling at me, and I got distracted looking at her face, and she decked me lol!

LOL... sure do have to! I don't believe any one way is the best way to defend oneself. And anything can go wrong. I do like to have something with me just in case and have thought about a handgun. But, I am really just not comfortable with that. I also don't have a problem at all with people choosing to carry a gun as long as they know what the hell they are doing and have a permit for it. I grew up around guns in our home but we all had to get training and practice at a firing range. And family members were hunters.

[maskandmiror]

Originally Posted by Incubus

Nope never ever remotely had such problems. Just the inevitable looks and 'are you in the right bathroom?' comments that lots of us get.

juste peace and love all people worlds 2012 and all yers after 2012

[MarineCorps1]

I've never been physically assaulted, but I've come close - At fourteen, I was riding bikes with a friend, and we went past the home of one of our school's football players. He was outside & saw us, and came running across his yard at me & when he got close, he kicked out at my bike, screaming at the top of his lungs, "YOU LOOK LIKE A FUCKING MAN!!!!" (I was wearing ripped up jeans and a T-shirt.) It was broad daylight on the main street of a small town.

At the time, I had no idea of what my identity actually was, and I couldn't understand why it was that I looked like a man when my friend was wearing essentially the same thing, and she didn't. I wasn't offended at being told I looked like a man, I just didn't understand it.

Beyond that, I've gotten the usual - People driving by and yelling at me, stares, etc.

[Tuff Stuff]

Originally Posted by Merlin

We call it gay bashing here.

Have you ever been assaulted for the way you look/being gay ?

Touch wood no-one has ever laid a finger on me (one of the benefits of passing ) but I feel like I am living on borrowed time.

I was not only beat up I was also raped in my life because I am a butch woman.

Both times this happen when I was a very boyish looking teenage cad..too confident in my mannerism that they had to Show Me.

It was one of the main reasons I started boxing and weightlifting.One time professional boxer Loreto Garza trained me at a local gym in Sacramento back in the 1980s.I owe him a great deal.Alot of the moves he taught me I believe saved my life more than a few times since.

These days i'm a huge looking "guy",I get mistaken for a dude all the time.I still enter amature nights at the Casino..hey,a thousand buck purse is still

Anyways..what happen to me in the past can still happen..you just have to be careful..its quite dangerous for everyone these days.

Take care of yourselves and your loved ones.

[Mormegil]

Ive never had violence thank God , I get looks now and then. Im still growing into myself so to speak. Seem to be growing more masculine in the last couple year , feels right. But ever since i was a kid Ive been mistaken for a boy.

People are like " Sir? , excuse me sir? " or I had a kid say "hey mister" at work the other day. Doesnt bother me at all . The fact Im a 44 DD makes me worry these people are in need of serious eye care but other than that lol

Had some bottles thrown at me from cars when I was out trying to exercise , some shouting at me but couldnt make out what he said.

Only other time I ever felt on guard even was when I briefly dated a woman earlier this year and I wanted to hold hands in public. I wouldnt have worried so much if she hadnt been so concerned. But I watched the people around us and for the most part nobody even noticed. I mean had a couple people looking at our hands then look away , but this is the south .

I carry a knife on me at all times just incase but despite the area , I never heard of gay bashing or violence towards butches or anyone. Had some bible thumpers at the gay pride but they just stood there waving posters and left when they relized we were just ignoring them .

[AishasWrath]

I've gotten grief from people for being butch...lots of it, in subtle and blatant ways. What's interesting is I got the more overt meanness after I gained weight. Before when I was skinny I only got passive-aggressive nastiness that was cloaked in therapy language about it.

"There's that F-word who thinks he's a D-word," that statement still haunts my dreams. It was the first strike of a campaign of harassment that nearly cost me my college education. "I have gay friends, but that...disgusting." "Crazy." "Stupid." The friends I had, my self-styled caretakers, weren't there. They said I was exaggerating and overreacting. They told me to ignore it. Some of them poked fun at me for being masculine too. Oh, but it was all in good fun! And it was justified because if I actually identified as male I wasn't marginalized so it was totally ok...and they had license to disparage masculinity all the time in front of me and roll their eyes if I protested...I was on my own. Being stalked, harassed, followed...probably nonconsensually photographed and videotaped, maybe even doxxed. And it was either "you're imagining it," "just ignore it," or that I somehow deserved it for getting above myself or betraying some group who laid claim to my life.

Before that, my mode of being was taken for a mental illness. People tried to read sexism, racism, any and every -ism they could into it. There were all the hoary old anti-butch mudslings and then some. Because I wasn't "doing butch" in the stereotypical way and I wasn't exclusively attracted to women, there were more. My affiliation with masculinity was construed as a toxic need for power and a statement of oppressiveness. "If you identify as female, why don't you want to be feminine? If you identify as male, what's wrong with being female? If you're butch, why do you want to have long hair and wear eyeliner? If you're attracted to men, why are you stone? If you're stone, why do you focus on your own pleasure? Why can't you be masculine in a more appropriate (read: preppie) way? Don't challenge men or make them angry, they're bigger than you and could hurt or kill you! Stop taking martial arts classes and working out, violence is bad and you could hurt someone!" These sentiments were from a self-professed feminist therapist.

Not following the sexist rules for socializing got twisted into "lack of social skills" or "lack of empathy." Getting mad about it was out of the question. I had to internalize all of that or continue to be incarcerated and overmedicated.

And by the time true naked bigotry reared its ugly head I wasn't in a position to effectively fight back, or have what was going on acknowledged. It's so seamless, creepily seamless, almost like it's theme-park engineered. I don't know what to make of it, other than something has gone wronger than wrong.