FTM's Attracted to Femmes

DapperButch · 01-02-2012, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heavenleahangel

I hope I am saying this right and I don't offend anyone. I have always been a little confused about saying a femme is high maintenance. I thought it meant the femme was into perfect make-up, hair, nails, skin treatments, designer clothes/bags and the such daily like it was financial maintenance. I can also see how someone can be "HM" emotionally. This may be my "country-bumpkin" side showing. While I love dressing up for occasions, doing hair/nails etc, I don't do it everyday. I guess that doesn't make me high maintenance, right?

I guess I have always separated out the terms/thought others separated out the terms, high femme from high maintenance.

High femme = society's definition of a very feminine woman in clothing and accessories (cost not connected to this)

I have regarded this term as being used in a negative way, a positive way, and a neutral way.

High maintenance = usually applied to women, but can also be applied to masculine people. Refers to them costing their partner a lot financially or emotionally. The person usually has a sense of entitlement regarding their "worth" or as being "deserving" of such attention and/or financial cost to others.

I have only seen this as being applied in a negative way.

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It really is facinating how we can assume people are working within the same definitions when communicating. That is why it is so important to define terms.

veryfemme · 01-02-2012, 11:25 AM

wow I learned something new about myself today, I am not high maintenance better yet I am a "high femme" and I like that way more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I guess I have always separated out the terms/thought others separated out the terms, high femme from high maintenance.

High femme = society's definition of a very feminine woman in clothing and accessories (cost not connected to this)

I have regarded this term as being used in a negative way, a positive way, and a neutral way.

High maintenance = usually applied to women, but can also be applied to masculine people. Refers to them costing their partner a lot financially or emotionally. The person usually has a sense of entitlement regarding their "worth" or as being "deserving" of such attention and/or financial cost to others.

I have only seen this as being applied in a negative way.

------------

It really is facinating how we can assume people are working within the same definitions when communicating. That is why it is so important to define terms.

The_Lady_Snow · 01-02-2012, 11:34 AM

I have make up on my hair did an old sweat shir pj bottoms and flip flops..

Would this be considered "high femme"?

Why not just Femme cause that's wha I am.. High to me perpetuates hierarchy. There is NO hierarchy in Femme we just are..

SweetJane · 01-02-2012, 12:01 PM

I have never been high maintenance---ever in any sense of the word. And I'm not exactly high femme, though I can pull out all the stops for a special occasion.

But I am femme most assuredly. It really is an attitude.

I think that in years past I didn't invest in myself as I do now. And that's necessary. Anyone, but especially a femme, needs to have clothes they love and that fit and flatter, personal products (makeup, perfume, hair products---as you guys have your favorites) that make them feel confident and special, and whatever else that enhances her (or hys/his) self-esteem. Though we don't need that to produce our own personal strut or swagger, they do help.

High maintenance (financial or emotional) can impact a relationship IF the person (femme or butch/ftm/man) puts her (or hys/his) needs/wants first to the point that the other person feels used or discounted. Drama factors into this as well.

The accoutrements of a person's personal style shouldn't control a person's behavior.

Femme does not equal high maintenance. High femme shouldn't either. But society expects the cost to be high because we assume that it takes a lot of work to be attractive. Well, some people look amazing with just soap and water. It's an inner beauty that comes through.

And many of us femmes will be very frugal with the elements of our personal style, caring for our clothes, handbags, shoes, and being very economical with our makeup and scents. We know how much they cost and it is our decisions to take a part of our paychecks to replace them as we are able. I would NEVER expect someone else to pay my expenses in any fashion.

Gemme · 01-02-2012, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I have make up on my hair did an old sweat shir pj bottoms and flip flops..

Would this be considered "high femme"?

Why not just Femme cause that's wha I am.. High to me perpetuates hierarchy. There is NO hierarchy in Femme we just are..

I would consider you beautiful, even if your hair was in curlers, you hadn't had a pedi in a year and you had a smudge of mustard on your cheek.

Here's how I see the whole hierarchy/high femme/etc thing:

There's a balance to the Universe. It's not so bad to say someone's a 'high femme', except that...in saying that....you are implying that someone else has to be a 'low femme' and who the Hell wants to have LOW in their flippin' identity???

I'm not so against labels or descriptions or adjectives of pleasure to describe members of our community, but then again, I like order and things to be nice and neat and compartmentalized.

It's when we use terms that may or may not describe someone innocently while kicking someone else, whether intentional or not. To push someone 'up', someone else is pushed 'down'.

I wish our community would adapt new descriptors. We have the power and the intelligence to do so. When that happens, I'm going to be a fucking unicorn femme. Let's see someone make THAT a bad thing.

Library_girl · 01-11-2012, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemme

It's when we use terms that may or may not describe someone innocently while kicking someone else, whether intentional or not. To push someone 'up', someone else is pushed 'down'.

I wish our community would adapt new descriptors. We have the power and the intelligence to do so. When that happens, I'm going to be a fucking unicorn femme. Let's see someone make THAT a bad thing.

This thread is really interesting to me, especially since I label myself as High Femme. First, I think a lot of us would say that we get to define our own labels. At least, that's what I like to think. The term "high femme" is an old term, as far as I know. To me, High Femme means really femme, extra femme, super femme, lots o' femme goin' on. And to me, it gives a little hint of old school, which is also part of my identity. In my mind, it DOES NOT mean "high maintenance" at all. I agree that high maintenance is a negative term that conjures up thoughts of someone, anyone of any identity, who requires a great amount of attention and care, be that emotional, financial, sexual, or all of the above. Anyone can be high maintenance, and it has nothing to do with High Femme. It's just a coincidence that the word High appears in both.

Also, in my opinion, calling someone or yourself a High Femme does not push that femme "upwards" to a higher level of femme-ness. There is no Femme Summer Camp (although that would be so fun!) or Femme Graduation, or Femme PhD. (If such a thing is ever invented, I want one!)

Moreover, I feel that High Femme does not suggest that there is a lower form of femme. It's interesting that so many people see things in those dichotomous terms. If this thing is high, there must be a low. If this thing is big, there must be a small. That's just not always the case. Sometimes something just IS.

We do have the power to adapt new descriptors, and we already have. Twenty-something years ago, when I was new to the b/f world, we didn't have words like boi or hy, or stone femme. Transgender was a new word. Gender queer didn't exist. Queer was being tossed around as the new cool word to use. Stone Butch Blues and The Femme Mystique had not been written yet. So as our culture evolves, our vocabulary evolves right along with us. It just takes a little while...... Meanwhile, I think a mutual respect of the labels we choose and don't choose to apply to ourselves would be fabulous. Just my humble and long-winded opinion.

Tommi · 01-11-2012, 05:09 AM

"Back in the day"......my father called me queer when I was 4 and it was not a good thing. He called me this because, I suppose of lableing he needed to identify his kid. The one who Gramma nicknamed Tommi~the tomboy who chased the little really really girlie girls , who probably grew up to be femme's ~probably really high femme's. He meant queer in a realllly nasty way Back in the Day, and I knew that those femme girls would always be the rage and the cherries in my bowl.

DapperButch · 01-02-2012, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I have make up on my hair did an old sweat shir pj bottoms and flip flops..

Would this be considered "high femme"?

Why not just Femme cause that's wha I am.. High to me perpetuates hierarchy. There is NO hierarchy in Femme we just are..

I guess for me, it is how someone uses the term "high femme". If people are saying a "high femme" is the type of femme all femmes should strive to be, or is better than any other type of femme, than to me they are talking hierarchies and I do struggle with seeing that as a good thing. If they are just using it as a way to describe what kind of femme they are, then I don't see that as them defining themselves any differently than a femme who describes herself as a "sporty femme". Just a different type of femme. That is how I see the term being used in a "neutral" way....it is being used as a descriptor then, with no value judgement attached to it.

To me it reminds me of the Episcopal church. I think there is something like High and Low Episcopal churches? The "high" ones are more similar to Catholic and the "low" ones are more similar to Prostestant in their thinking/services. (Or something like that? Person an Episcopalian could explain it better). Neither is better than the other, just different.

I think the problem is the name. "High" often means better in our society.

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ETA: I am now remembering femmes saying that in the past b-f culture supported a hierarchy of high femme being something all femmes should strive to be. Is this accurate? Is that still the case today? I am curious to hear from femmes on this.

DapperButch · 01-02-2012, 09:01 PM

Perhaps I could have just read Gemme's post and then thanked her instead of writing a post with similar points.

(not saying she agrees with me/said the esxact same thing, I am just saying that her post would have saved me some thinking and subsequent posting time)

Novelafemme · 01-02-2012, 11:46 AM

i don't want to speak for apretty, but i do think i get what she is saying. when using verbiage like "high" when referencing how one identifies as a person it automatically inserts a value or a hierarchical measure of worth. "high femme" vs "femme" has the potential to connote superiority amongst the femme community which can then lead to judgement based on a heteronormative standard of beauty and self-worth. it's all pretty darned normal, but in the queer community i think many of us are working to eliminate potentially destructive binaries...especially ones of a heteronormative nature. that being said, i think most of us are evolved enough to appreciate and honor a femme who id's as a "high femme" and allow her the opportunity to move around in and explore a space that represents who and what she is...just as long as she extends that same respect to others.

for me it's all about mutual respect. i don't feel threatened by a high femme because i am comfortable as i am...which is a crazy blend of everything!

01-02-2012, 11:34 AM	#3
The_Lady_Snow MILLION $$$ PUSSY How Do You Identify?: Kinky, Raw, Perverted, Uber Queer Alpha Femme Preferred Pronoun?: Iconic Ms. Relationship Status: Keeper of 3, only one has the map to my freckles Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: La Reina del Sur Posts: 22,488 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 32,231 Thanked 80,077 Times in 15,670 Posts Rep Power: 21474874	Hmm.. I have make up on my hair did an old sweat shir pj bottoms and flip flops.. Would this be considered "high femme"? Why not just Femme cause that's wha I am.. High to me perpetuates hierarchy. There is NO hierarchy in Femme we just are.. __________________ "If you’re going to play these dirty games of ours, then you might as well indulge completely. It’s all about turning back into an animal and that’s the beauty of it. Place your guilt on the sidewalk and take a blow torch to it (guilt is usually worthless anyway). Be perverted, be filthy, do things that mannered people shouldn’t do. If you’re going to be gross then go for it and don’t wimp out."---Master Aiden Last edited by The_Lady_Snow; 01-02-2012 at 11:38 AM.

01-11-2012, 05:09 AM	#7
Tommi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Usually "Hello" Relationship Status: Married and Bound to Tommi's kaijira (Ts_kaijira ) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Suthun.... California that is. Across the ridge from Laguna Beach. Posts: 8,151 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,621 Thanked 21,337 Times in 5,970 Posts Rep Power: 21474860	Jumpy Jumpy Music "Back in the day"......my father called me queer when I was 4 and it was not a good thing. He called me this because, I suppose of lableing he needed to identify his kid. The one who Gramma nicknamed Tommi~the tomboy who chased the little really really girlie girls , who probably grew up to be femme's ~probably really high femme's. He meant queer in a realllly nasty way Back in the Day, and I knew that those femme girls would always be the rage and the cherries in my bowl.

01-02-2012, 09:01 PM	#9
DapperButch Roadster Guy How Do You Identify?: FTM, Stone Butch Preferred Pronoun?: He Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northeast Posts: 7,745 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 26,545 Thanked 26,810 Times in 5,772 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	Perhaps I could have just read Gemme's post and then thanked her instead of writing a post with similar points. (not saying she agrees with me/said the esxact same thing, I am just saying that her post would have saved me some thinking and subsequent posting time) __________________ -Dapper Are you educated or indoctrinated?

01-02-2012, 12:01 PM	#4
SweetJane Member How Do You Identify?: stone femme Preferred Pronoun?: she Relationship Status: always solo Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 368 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 380 Thanked 815 Times in 198 Posts Rep Power: 4309957	I have never been high maintenance---ever in any sense of the word. And I'm not exactly high femme, though I can pull out all the stops for a special occasion. But I am femme most assuredly. It really is an attitude. I think that in years past I didn't invest in myself as I do now. And that's necessary. Anyone, but especially a femme, needs to have clothes they love and that fit and flatter, personal products (makeup, perfume, hair products---as you guys have your favorites) that make them feel confident and special, and whatever else that enhances her (or hys/his) self-esteem. Though we don't need that to produce our own personal strut or swagger, they do help. High maintenance (financial or emotional) can impact a relationship IF the person (femme or butch/ftm/man) puts her (or hys/his) needs/wants first to the point that the other person feels used or discounted. Drama factors into this as well. The accoutrements of a person's personal style shouldn't control a person's behavior. Femme does not equal high maintenance. High femme shouldn't either. But society expects the cost to be high because we assume that it takes a lot of work to be attractive. Well, some people look amazing with just soap and water. It's an inner beauty that comes through. And many of us femmes will be very frugal with the elements of our personal style, caring for our clothes, handbags, shoes, and being very economical with our makeup and scents. We know how much they cost and it is our decisions to take a part of our paychecks to replace them as we are able. I would NEVER expect someone else to pay my expenses in any fashion.

01-02-2012, 11:46 AM	#10
Novelafemme Timed Out - TOS Drama How Do You Identify?: ........ Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: ........ Posts: 2,402 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,981 Thanked 8,925 Times in 1,834 Posts Rep Power: 0	i don't want to speak for apretty, but i do think i get what she is saying. when using verbiage like "high" when referencing how one identifies as a person it automatically inserts a value or a hierarchical measure of worth. "high femme" vs "femme" has the potential to connote superiority amongst the femme community which can then lead to judgement based on a heteronormative standard of beauty and self-worth. it's all pretty darned normal, but in the queer community i think many of us are working to eliminate potentially destructive binaries...especially ones of a heteronormative nature. that being said, i think most of us are evolved enough to appreciate and honor a femme who id's as a "high femme" and allow her the opportunity to move around in and explore a space that represents who and what she is...just as long as she extends that same respect to others. for me it's all about mutual respect. i don't feel threatened by a high femme because i am comfortable as i am...which is a crazy blend of everything!