FTM's Attracted to Femmes

[Electrocell]

Ladies maybe it is not because you are a girly girl or to femme for them , it's because they might think you are a high maintenance femme whether you are or not. They just might be saying that you are too femme instead of coming out and saying you would cost me alot of money .Not saying this to be nasty but alot of guys automatically think this way if they think you will need alot of things to keep you happy.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

Ladies maybe it is not because you are a girly girl or to femme for them , it's because they might think you are a high maintenance femme whether you are or not. They just might be saying that you are too femme instead of coming out and saying you would cost me alot of money .Not saying this to be nasty but alot of guys automatically think this way if they think you will need alot of things to keep you happy.

Or maybe they really ARE just saying "you're too femme" because they aren't attracted to femmes, or hyper feminine women, or femininity at all. Some people really ARE just attracted to certain looks or personalities. Granted, there is a better way to say it, but not everyone is diplomatic. If someone said to me "I don't like brunettes", I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by ButchEire

Too femme? That's funny. When did such a ridiculous boundary develop?

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

Frankly I don't understand why people get so offended when they find out someone isn't attracted to them. I don't/won't slam anyone for their preferences. It isn't my place to judge them. Someone who says someone is "too butch" or "too femme" is really just saying "I am interested in X" or "I fit best with X", but of course, it could be said in a gentler way.

I think the majority of people are attracted to a particular segment, or segments on the gender spectrum. It's less common for people to be attracted to every single possible gender /gender ID.

If someone doesn't like you, or your apprearance, or your eye color, or your clothes... just move on. It really IS that simple.

I hope that ButchEire comes back to clarify, but I really think that hy was being tongue in cheek while trying to be supportive of the OP who was sadly lamenting the fact that she struggles with finding a FTM who is interested in femmes. I personally didn't see the OP as being offended by it, rather she is just saying she wished she could find this type of FTM.

Originally Posted by Electrocell

Ladies maybe it is not because you are a girly girl or to femme for them , it's because they might think you are a high maintenance femme whether you are or not. They just might be saying that you are too femme instead of coming out and saying you would cost me alot of money .Not saying this to be nasty but alot of guys automatically think this way if they think you will need alot of things to keep you happy.

The OP indicated that she was talking about FTMs preferring other masculine defining people rather than femmes. She didn't say anything about about high femmes, or femmy femmes, or whatever...just "femmes women".

As an aside, I have never thought of what you describe as a "girly girl" as automatically being a "high maintenance femme" or one who spends a lot of money on her outside self or would expect me to spend that on her. Being on the extreme end of "feminine" (society's definition based on external presentation) doesn't equate to this. Women do their own nails, dye their own hair, etc (the accoutrements of "girly girl"). I am actually surprised by your statement, as I personally haven't heard other masculine identified people say this before?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

As an aside, I have never thought of what you describe as a "girly girl" as automatically being a "high maintenance femme" or one who spends a lot of money on her outside self or would expect me to spend that on her. Being on the extreme end of "feminine" society's definition based on external presentation) doesn't equate to this. Women do their own nails, dye their own hair, etc (the accoutrements of "girly girl"). I am actually surprised by your statement, as I personally haven't heard other masculine identified people say this before?

This is so true! I've never heard any masculine identifying person who professed to an attraction to Femme as concerned with the expense or 'maintenance' of presenting femme (in all of the social and historic manners of femme presentation)...

At the same time I hear a lot of talk on this subject of high maintenance/too girly and it feels both femme vs femme (competitive) and heteronormative--though you probably can't extract one from the other.

Thoughts?

[theoddz]

Hmmmmm....well, I've never thought about declining an opportunity of getting to know a woman I've found to be interesting, simply because she was "girly" and I suspected that that fact was going to "cost" me, monetarily.

My best friend of over 25 years is a delightful Femme and has been my friend and confidant for all these years. When we've gone out for a meal, a few of the waitresses we've had have openly flirted with me. Irene gets a good laugh out of it because I never seem to notice it. It goes right over my head. I am a friendly guy, of course, and I try to smile at everyone and be sweet, give compliments and such, but I guess I hardly ever see the "flirt" part of it, mostly because I've "deconditioned" myself to it for so many years.

Being my age (now 51), and having lived so many of my years in a Butch shell, before transitioning, I developed a sort of "skin", or 2X4 nature, and I think that is because of the (seemingly) constant whispering, snickering, demeaning and sometimes just calloused remarks aimed at us by str8 homo/transphobes. It's like you just turn that switch off that notices how others look at us, talk about us, etc. As it turns out, that's a double edged sword because I have trouble recognizing/paying attention to a woman who might be trying to get my attention in the flirty, or positive, sense. Oh, I have pretty good "gaydar", having lived in the Lesbian/Queer world for 30+ years, but I'm not good with recognizing the "come on".

Since completely transitioning and now passing 100%, I've found that this particular trait I have with this has served to my definite disadvantage, because unlike most/many of my XY brothers, I just don't have that "aggressive" confident trait of pursuing a woman, or recognizing her attentions. It's really left me out in the cold a lot of times.

I prefer a woman who is more subtly direct, if that makes sense. It's not what I'd term "aggressive", insomuch as more directly approaching me and wanting to get to know me. Once the cards are on the table, I'm much more likely to work my courage up to go further. If she's more after my friendship first, the more likely I am to be attracted to her.

On the other hand, I often wonder if I had had the opportunity to have transitioned say, in my 20's or earlier, would I be differently-minded?? Perhaps.....yeah.....probably.

~Theo~

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by apretty

This is so true! I've never heard any masculine identifying person who professed to an attraction to Femme as concerned with the expense or 'maintenance' of presenting femme (in all of the social and historic manners of femme presentation)...

At the same time I hear a lot of talk on this subject of high maintenance/too girly and it feels both femme vs femme (competitive) and heteronormative--though you probably can't extract one from the other.

Thoughts?

Could you say that second paragraph a different way? I am struggling with following you here...want to make sure I am reading you correctly.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Could you say that second paragraph a different way? I am struggling with following you here...want to make sure I am reading you correctly.

I mean to say that there's been a lot of talk on the subject of femininity and what people call, 'high maintenance'.

There's the ways that our masculine-counterparts (generalizing, here) have said that they see femme/are attracted to femme when it's presented in heels/stockings/skirt: Which only fucks with everyone's head because that's not the reality of anyone, 24/7.

There's the ways that a femme we'll start a thread on 'high' femme and we'll get a laundry list of her heels/stockings/skirt--Or better, a photograph of a foot in a black heel, in a black stocking and a hem of a skirt.

Then, only slightly related, there's the ways that 'high-maintenance' is thrown around. We feel compelled to defend against it (or for it) like hot-potato that no one really wants to be left holding. When in reality it's another way to slap a label and grade on our ass and by that, a value. No thanks for that.

I said heternormative, earlier because I think that Queer is a thinking-community: I know, that's a bold statement but I stand by it.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I hope that ButchEire comes back to clarify, but I really think that hy was being tongue in cheek while trying to be supportive of the OP who was sadly lamenting the fact that she struggles with finding a FTM who is interested in femmes. I personally didn't see the OP as being offended by it, rather she is just saying she wished she could find this type of FTM.

The OP indicated that she was talking about FTMs preferring other masculine defining people rather than femmes. She didn't say anything about about high femmes, or femmy femmes, or whatever...just "femmes women".

No clarification needed. I've seen the same type of posts in this and other threads, i.e. "I'm heartbroken because someone said I'm too XYZ". I stand behind my statement in general, not just in response to a single post in this thread.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

Ladies maybe it is not because you are a girly girl or to femme for them , it's because they might think you are a high maintenance femme whether you are or not. They just might be saying that you are too femme instead of coming out and saying you would cost me alot of money .Not saying this to be nasty but alot of guys automatically think this way if they think you will need alot of things to keep you happy.

Yeah, I don't date butches or ftms that are concerned with their appearence for that reason exactly. They might just want my money.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic,
blush

[SweetJane]

This is a very interesting thread. Being my age, I pass as straight--and in the wider world out there it's nobody's business how I identify. But when I'm in this community, it is more difficult. I'm old school and a very, very late bloomer so a lot of this is new to me. I also prefer to be approached but I will mingle and make small talk in a group. In fact, I'm struggling today on whether to go to a couple events in the city tonight when I know absolutely no one and will go alone. It's a tough call.

[clay]

Originally Posted by blush

Yeah, I don't date butches or ftms that are concerned with their appearence for that reason exactly. They might just want my money.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic,
blush

you rock......smiles

[Electrocell]

Originally Posted by blush

Yeah, I don't date butches or ftms that are concerned with their appearence for that reason exactly. They might just want my money.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic,
blush

If you will reread what I said ---I said I was not saying this to be nasty ----just bringing up another point of view.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

If you will reread what I said ---I said I was not saying this to be nasty ----just bringing up another point of view.

Cloaking comments with "I don't mean to be nasty" and following it with something offensive is still offensive. Why would you state an opinion that is offensive and not yours? Obviously you expected it to get negative responses or you wouldn't have cloaked it with "not to be nasty" comment.

[Leigh]

Hi everyone, just came to wish you all a wonderful 2012

[Quintease]

I have no interest in being High femme.

And low femme makes me think of blowjobs for some reason

[weatherboi]

Whenever i hear the term high maintenance to describe a women it is usually done with the intent to complain about them.

"She is sooo high maintenance"
"She is tooo high maintenance"
"She was so high maintenance she drained me" the guy was talking more emotionally than financially.


it puts value on women...


"i got myself a high maintenance woman. but she is worth it"
this conversation the guy was insinuating the women he was presently with was gonna cost him more money to be with than the last woman he was with.

honestly i am usually inclined to be the party pooper and say something when i hear that term used by butches, men, trans guys.

when i hear femmes use it to describe themselves i don't not feel inclined to say anything. not my place but it does make me wonder the need to create hierarchy.

[Heavenleahangel]

I hope I am saying this right and I don't offend anyone. I have always been a little confused about saying a femme is high maintenance. I thought it meant the femme was into perfect make-up, hair, nails, skin treatments, designer clothes/bags and the such daily like it was financial maintenance. I can also see how someone can be "HM" emotionally. This may be my "country-bumpkin" side showing. While I love dressing up for occasions, doing hair/nails etc, I don't do it everyday. I guess that doesn't make me high maintenance, right?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I find it odd that HM applies to Femmes, it's like Femme's are expected to look, walk around, function looking as if we just stepped off a magazine cover shoot..

Like you Heavenleahangel I on occasion "dress up" or on occasion I put on my war paint everyday, sometimes it's required others I do it cause I feel like it.

How come this particular descriptor isn't used on butches/guys/trans folk?

Why do we as Femme's continue to let others define us and set a hierarchy that should never exist certainly not from the mouths some guy/butch/trans person..


Stuff to think about...

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Heavenleahangel

I hope I am saying this right and I don't offend anyone. I have always been a little confused about saying a femme is high maintenance. I thought it meant the femme was into perfect make-up, hair, nails, skin treatments, designer clothes/bags and the such daily like it was financial maintenance. I can also see how someone can be "HM" emotionally. This may be my "country-bumpkin" side showing. While I love dressing up for occasions, doing hair/nails etc, I don't do it everyday. I guess that doesn't make me high maintenance, right?

I guess I have always separated out the terms/thought others separated out the terms, high femme from high maintenance.

High femme = society's definition of a very feminine woman in clothing and accessories (cost not connected to this)

I have regarded this term as being used in a negative way, a positive way, and a neutral way.

High maintenance = usually applied to women, but can also be applied to masculine people. Refers to them costing their partner a lot financially or emotionally. The person usually has a sense of entitlement regarding their "worth" or as being "deserving" of such attention and/or financial cost to others.

I have only seen this as being applied in a negative way.

------------

It really is facinating how we can assume people are working within the same definitions when communicating. That is why it is so important to define terms.

[veryfemme]

wow I learned something new about myself today, I am not high maintenance better yet I am a "high femme" and I like that way more.

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I guess I have always separated out the terms/thought others separated out the terms, high femme from high maintenance.

High femme = society's definition of a very feminine woman in clothing and accessories (cost not connected to this)

I have regarded this term as being used in a negative way, a positive way, and a neutral way.

High maintenance = usually applied to women, but can also be applied to masculine people. Refers to them costing their partner a lot financially or emotionally. The person usually has a sense of entitlement regarding their "worth" or as being "deserving" of such attention and/or financial cost to others.

I have only seen this as being applied in a negative way.

------------

It really is facinating how we can assume people are working within the same definitions when communicating. That is why it is so important to define terms.